Of course there is no "record" on it. Be honest. How many pilots have you known over the years that do CDO's and get 8 hours of sleep during the day in preparation? If you're honest, I'll bet that number is close to if not equal to ZERO.

CDO's were invented by sleezeball regional airlines as a way AROUND the FAR rest requirements. Yeah, I know NWA had them but who else in this industry has/had them? I know TWA didn't. I know Delta didn't/doesn't. I don't think American does. It's mainly been a regional airline thing. I observed it closely enough during my short stint at AMR Eagle to know how the sleep situation is routinely handled. I don't need an official stat. You don't either. Both of us know that the vast majority of pilots who like and bid CDO's do so because it allows them to be off during the day so they can do stuff they want/need to do, and the only sleep they get in the 24 hour period is whatever sleep the CDO provides at the hotel. And most of the time that's going to be at best 3 or 4 hours of actual sleep. Two zombies the next morning flying me or my family? No thanks!

Just because we have other types of flying that present sleep/rest challenges, doesn't mean we need to add more. CDO's are a VERY bad idea. Period.

Why would that be necessary? If the pilot gets his FAR 117 mandated "8 hour uninterrupted sleep opportunity" during his 10 hour minimum rest prior to beginning the CDO, then we're all good, right?

And what percentage of red eyes are done by a full cycle 8 hour REM restorative sleep crew? International? 30 hour layover followed by a 5AM show? Any 5AM show?

I've done off cycle flying for years, and I adapted my schedule for it. Its really no big deal. I'd rather fly all night consistently than do 5AM shows and off cycle red eyes and random day sleeps.

Not only are properly done SDP's as safe as some flying we currently do, they are safer than some, and having them would remove some other flying that is questionable for circadian concerns. Do you really think 5am reports followed by a 4-5 leg full length duty day are really less safe than a reasonable SDP? Even on the exact same amount of sleep the night before?

In any case, if you don't want them, you'd very likely never see one, even on reserve.

Trouble is that it's not going to be on "the exact same amount of sleep." The CDO pilot is going to have maybe 3 or 4 hours of sleep in the 24 hour period. That has been proven out over the years by the way pilots who bid these atrocities handle them.

The 5am report followed by a 4-5 leg day is handled the same way I handled it on my last trip a few days ago. I planned for it on the layover. I ate an early dinner. I got a good long workout in. And I went to bed and went to sleep around 8pm. I got 8 hours of sleep.

Personally, I hate the early morning go's like that. And if I had the seniority in my category to do it, I would bid around it. But it's manageable for me when I have to do it. On a CDO, I personally could not do that (get 8 hours of sleep during the day in preparation). I know some can. But I submit that most cannot and/or will not.

Again with the non sequiturs.

I am in favor of reasonable circadian protections for off cycle flying. I also think the 10am next day limit should be applied to reserves that do red eyes. However in order to make your point, you have to make up bare bones FAR scenarios that I'm not only not suggesting, but that I'm actively advocating against.

I don't want FAR minimum SDP's or a return to the regional dirt bag manager days of crews sleeping on plywood planks between the seats. It does this discussion no good to flame it with such extreme hyperbole. All you end up doing is setting up a straw man for others to knock down and IMO that makes it more likely we will see SDP's. Unreasonable resistance will become a catalyst to actually enable them the more people cry wolf on this issue.

But why the helmet fire on this anyway? If done right, and that's what this discussion should really be about, they are not one ounce more dangerous than tons of flying we currently do, and are safer than some flying we currently do. I don't advocate a wild west fly to the FAR's management fantasy. Far from it. I want numerous layers of protections for lineholders and reserves alike.

They are desirable, can pay well, and can significantly increase the QOL for both those that do them and those that don't, and they can do it just as safe or safer than flying we currently do.

I feel I've already answered/addressed all those points. Just because my opinion differs from yours doesn't make it a "non sequitur." It sounds like we're talking past each other and I'm not going to waste anymore of my time or yours doing that. I completely disagree with your argument on this. Maybe it's just best if we leave it at that. In any case, I won't be doing CDO's... one way or the other. If this pilot group is ultimately dumb enough to allow them, well there's nothing I can do to stop it.

That's one of our SDTs, so I don't know what to tell you. Here is the worst one in the system I suppose:

TRIP #524 D7523 DTW: 1_34__7 effective SEP 07-SEP 29 except SEP 08 SEP 15 SEP 17 SEP 22 SEP 24
DAY FLT# DEP ARR DEP ARR BLK SAT TOG DUTY CREDIT LO CODE F/24 TAFB A/C
---- ----------- --- --- --------- --------- ----- ----- ----- ----- ------ --------- ---- ----- ---
RPT (01)21:06 0h45
Su 1 03921 DTW SWF (01)21:51 (03)23:32 1h41 1h37 6h28 1h37 DutyRm 0h00 2h26 CPJ
Mo 2 03755 SWF DTW (10)06:00 (11)07:45 1h45 1h49 1h49 0h00 10h39 CPJ
RLS (12)08:00 3h26 0h15 10h54 4h00(M)
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______
TAFB: 10h54 Block Time: 3h26 Credit Time: 4h00(D) 16.5048543
__________________________________________________ ______________

Time on the ground is 6:28. I admit, this one is awful because of the 1:45 leg time.

I sure did that one a lot. Might as well have been drunk on the 4th one in a row.

That was also the last trip that the Pinnacle 3701 captain flew before his accident trip... with me.

They can be done safely with lots of restrictions on them, but the 117 loa did not deliver enough restrictions. We had to have more ground time at 9E than the 117 loa!

Yeah, the 2.5 hour leg restriction made it a non starter, obviously, but they can be done. Here's what's needed, based on my experience:
Minimum 5 hours rest, non-violate, behind the door, at the hotel.
Hotel must be within 10 minutes of the airport.
Max 1.5 hour leg for flights departing between 7PM-8:30PM local
Max 1 hour leg for flights departing between 8:30PM-10:30PM local
No flights allowed past 10:30PM local
Flights must remain in one time zone
Earliest 6AM departure time.
Minimum 7.5 hours credit per SDT.
Minimum two days preceding, and following a string of any SDP's.
SDT are limited to only SDT line holders, no hybrid lines.
Max string of 3 SDT's for line holders, maximum 2 for reserves- waivable at pilot's request.

I think those rules would leave you with 1400 min credit for the year, for a full load of CDO's monthly, without killing yourself in the process, and being home everyday.

Good post. Each pilot has a different tolerance for fatigue. The worst trips I have ever flown at Delta for fatigue were the 12 and 13 day pacific trips. I and most pilots I talk to are walking zombies after those.