Jet blue wants us now
04-07-2022, 09:51 AM
#161
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2017
Position: Reverse Cowgirl
Posts: 418
Wouldn’t make much sense to make the acquisition just to park a bunch of planes. Just a guess, but I think JB would definitely use the A319’s, but would probably convert the remaining orders to A321 NEO’s, though.
04-07-2022, 10:16 AM
#162
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 94
For those of you wondering/worrying about our (JB) contract based on what you see posted online...it has some pretty good QOL aspects. I'll try to outline some pros and cons.
There is a method to drop to zero and rebuild, not many do it because it is A)risky (you need to use PTO initially) and B) dependent on reserve coverage (you need good seniority to start w/ weekday trips to have a chance). You use PTO to drop trips, then you rebuild w/ trips that cover at least one day of the trip you initially dropped. PTO is credited back to you as long as you build up to 70 hours. Can also trip trade to zero, again you need decent trips (seniority) to offer.
We have a convoluted system of reserve coverage green/red days. It is possible to swap but the longer the trip, the harder it can be to swap. Simplifying/Fixing this is a big ticket item for Contract 2.0/JCBA
Reserves are 14 Long Call. 2.5 hour Short Call. Short call on for 10 hour on call, shorter closer to midnight and last day. Trips go to LC first, if more than 14 hours away, then SCL. Hours of Service rules prevent long duty days on SC. No preset blocks of RSV. You bid daily (can have a standing type bid) for Early AM, AM, Afternoon, and Late. Only Late silo can be assigned Redeyes. On Reserve you can pref bid very long blocks ON and the company has to figure when to give you your 30 hour rest (95% of the time equals more days OFF). Long call can convert the day prior to SCL 5 times/month w/ extra pay on top of guarantee. Average conversions are 0-2 times/month. If you hit guarantee before month over, either released or paid above guarantee if you sit the rest of your schedule. Only way for RSV to get above guarantee is to work over vacation or pick up PREM, RSA, or VDA (see below).
Not alot of showing up for one trip and flying something else like most airlines, even less rerouting past your originally scheduled footprint-as this incurs steep penalties and in some cases can only happen twice/year.
Multi day trips are mostly unproductive and not that commutable. Less clock flipping than there used to be but still exists. Fatigue calls work well if you can't adjust.
We get 35 hours credit per vacation week which equals half month off (good) but are lacking in the amount of weeks (bad-14 year guy gets 3 weeks). You can use sick/PTO to buy an extra week during yearly bidding. Sick can be paid (can call in well after one day) or unpaid (done for footprint of trip). Reserves get debited 4.2 per day of sick, even if assigned a trip.
Healthcare blows. high deduct, pain in arse to get seed money, high premiums.
Retirement good, 16%. VBA/retirement medical fund is new, unclear of it's value at this point. Kicked off healthcare when you retire. Accrue up 510 hours sick bank for cash out.
Not sure what your x/y list is but we have Premium at 150% (company's discretion when to offer), RSA 175% (extra day of on call for lineholder or RSV) and VDA at 200% (last minute uncoverable trips in seniority order for those who signed up). If it comes to VDA they'll start buying future trips if it overlaps what they need covered.
DH in aisle or window, Mint will NOT be assigned (can cancel DH and nonrev if available). We are terrible at booking DHs
We have profit sharing on the books, but in current form will never pay out anything substantial.
STD and LTD are both very good. STD premium is expensive, LTD base and Life Ins is free, can buy up additional.
Hotels have been getting better but probably more to do with signing contracts over COVID.
Scope, internets say we just sold it. I voted NO, but in reality the LOA is a long term carve out that for now takes advantage of AA's lack of scope. About a 90% chance it doesn't negatively affect us and probably helps alot.
Hours of service (actual and scheduled) pretty good,better than FARs. 14/16 hour schedule before/after redye.
Commuter policy, we have one, I don't use it not sure of how great it is
Happy to answer any specifics
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know you guys have the drop zero/rebuild, 4 days OFF between trips, what else in your contract should be cherry picked in a JCBA?
Could you explain the x/y list? Seniority based?
There is a method to drop to zero and rebuild, not many do it because it is A)risky (you need to use PTO initially) and B) dependent on reserve coverage (you need good seniority to start w/ weekday trips to have a chance). You use PTO to drop trips, then you rebuild w/ trips that cover at least one day of the trip you initially dropped. PTO is credited back to you as long as you build up to 70 hours. Can also trip trade to zero, again you need decent trips (seniority) to offer.
We have a convoluted system of reserve coverage green/red days. It is possible to swap but the longer the trip, the harder it can be to swap. Simplifying/Fixing this is a big ticket item for Contract 2.0/JCBA
Reserves are 14 Long Call. 2.5 hour Short Call. Short call on for 10 hour on call, shorter closer to midnight and last day. Trips go to LC first, if more than 14 hours away, then SCL. Hours of Service rules prevent long duty days on SC. No preset blocks of RSV. You bid daily (can have a standing type bid) for Early AM, AM, Afternoon, and Late. Only Late silo can be assigned Redeyes. On Reserve you can pref bid very long blocks ON and the company has to figure when to give you your 30 hour rest (95% of the time equals more days OFF). Long call can convert the day prior to SCL 5 times/month w/ extra pay on top of guarantee. Average conversions are 0-2 times/month. If you hit guarantee before month over, either released or paid above guarantee if you sit the rest of your schedule. Only way for RSV to get above guarantee is to work over vacation or pick up PREM, RSA, or VDA (see below).
Not alot of showing up for one trip and flying something else like most airlines, even less rerouting past your originally scheduled footprint-as this incurs steep penalties and in some cases can only happen twice/year.
Multi day trips are mostly unproductive and not that commutable. Less clock flipping than there used to be but still exists. Fatigue calls work well if you can't adjust.
We get 35 hours credit per vacation week which equals half month off (good) but are lacking in the amount of weeks (bad-14 year guy gets 3 weeks). You can use sick/PTO to buy an extra week during yearly bidding. Sick can be paid (can call in well after one day) or unpaid (done for footprint of trip). Reserves get debited 4.2 per day of sick, even if assigned a trip.
Healthcare blows. high deduct, pain in arse to get seed money, high premiums.
Retirement good, 16%. VBA/retirement medical fund is new, unclear of it's value at this point. Kicked off healthcare when you retire. Accrue up 510 hours sick bank for cash out.
Not sure what your x/y list is but we have Premium at 150% (company's discretion when to offer), RSA 175% (extra day of on call for lineholder or RSV) and VDA at 200% (last minute uncoverable trips in seniority order for those who signed up). If it comes to VDA they'll start buying future trips if it overlaps what they need covered.
DH in aisle or window, Mint will NOT be assigned (can cancel DH and nonrev if available). We are terrible at booking DHs
We have profit sharing on the books, but in current form will never pay out anything substantial.
STD and LTD are both very good. STD premium is expensive, LTD base and Life Ins is free, can buy up additional.
Hotels have been getting better but probably more to do with signing contracts over COVID.
Scope, internets say we just sold it. I voted NO, but in reality the LOA is a long term carve out that for now takes advantage of AA's lack of scope. About a 90% chance it doesn't negatively affect us and probably helps alot.
Hours of service (actual and scheduled) pretty good,better than FARs. 14/16 hour schedule before/after redye.
Commuter policy, we have one, I don't use it not sure of how great it is
Happy to answer any specifics
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know you guys have the drop zero/rebuild, 4 days OFF between trips, what else in your contract should be cherry picked in a JCBA?
Could you explain the x/y list? Seniority based?
04-07-2022, 10:40 AM
#163
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 172
Originally Posted by crash312
For those of you wondering/worrying about our (JB) contract based on what you see posted online...it has some pretty good QOL aspects. I'll try to outline some pros and cons.
There is a method to drop to zero and rebuild, not many do it because it is A)risky (you need to use PTO initially) and B) dependent on reserve coverage (you need good seniority to start w/ weekday trips to have a chance). You use PTO to drop trips, then you rebuild w/ trips that cover at least one day of the trip you initially dropped. PTO is credited back to you as long as you build up to 70 hours. Can also trip trade to zero, again you need decent trips (seniority) to offer.
We have a convoluted system of reserve coverage green/red days. It is possible to swap but the longer the trip, the harder it can be to swap. Simplifying/Fixing this is a big ticket item for Contract 2.0/JCBA
Reserves are 14 Long Call. 2.5 hour Short Call. Short call on for 10 hour on call, shorter closer to midnight and last day. Trips go to LC first, if more than 14 hours away, then SCL. Hours of Service rules prevent long duty days on SC. No preset blocks of RSV. You bid daily (can have a standing type bid) for Early AM, AM, Afternoon, and Late. Only Late silo can be assigned Redeyes. On Reserve you can pref bid very long blocks ON and the company has to figure when to give you your 30 hour rest (95% of the time equals more days OFF). Long call can convert the day prior to SCL 5 times/month w/ extra pay on top of guarantee. Average conversions are 0-2 times/month. If you hit guarantee before month over, either released or paid above guarantee if you sit the rest of your schedule. Only way for RSV to get above guarantee is to work over vacation or pick up PREM, RSA, or VDA (see below).
Not alot of showing up for one trip and flying something else like most airlines, even less rerouting past your originally scheduled footprint-as this incurs steep penalties and in some cases can only happen twice/year.
Multi day trips are mostly unproductive and not that commutable. Less clock flipping than there used to be but still exists. Fatigue calls work well if you can't adjust.
We get 35 hours credit per vacation week which equals half month off (good) but are lacking in the amount of weeks (bad-14 year guy gets 3 weeks). You can use sick/PTO to buy an extra week during yearly bidding. Sick can be paid (can call in well after one day) or unpaid (done for footprint of trip). Reserves get debited 4.2 per day of sick, even if assigned a trip.
Healthcare blows. high deduct, pain in arse to get seed money, high premiums.
Retirement good, 16%. VBA/retirement medical fund is new, unclear of it's value at this point. Kicked off healthcare when you retire. Accrue up 510 hours sick bank for cash out.
Not sure what your x/y list is but we have Premium at 150% (company's discretion when to offer), RSA 175% (extra day of on call for lineholder or RSV) and VDA at 200% (last minute uncoverable trips in seniority order for those who signed up). If it comes to VDA they'll start buying future trips if it overlaps what they need covered.
DH in aisle or window, Mint will NOT be assigned (can cancel DH and nonrev if available). We are terrible at booking DHs
We have profit sharing on the books, but in current form will never pay out anything substantial.
STD and LTD are both very good. STD premium is expensive, LTD base and Life Ins is free, can buy up additional.
Hotels have been getting better but probably more to do with signing contracts over COVID.
Scope, internets say we just sold it. I voted NO, but in reality the LOA is a long term carve out that for now takes advantage of AA's lack of scope. About a 90% chance it doesn't negatively affect us and probably helps alot.
Hours of service (actual and scheduled) pretty good,better than FARs. 14/16 hour schedule before/after redye.
Commuter policy, we have one, I don't use it not sure of how great it is
Happy to answer any specifics
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know you guys have the drop zero/rebuild, 4 days OFF between trips, what else in your contract should be cherry picked in a JCBA?
Could you explain the x/y list? Seniority based?
There is a method to drop to zero and rebuild, not many do it because it is A)risky (you need to use PTO initially) and B) dependent on reserve coverage (you need good seniority to start w/ weekday trips to have a chance). You use PTO to drop trips, then you rebuild w/ trips that cover at least one day of the trip you initially dropped. PTO is credited back to you as long as you build up to 70 hours. Can also trip trade to zero, again you need decent trips (seniority) to offer.
We have a convoluted system of reserve coverage green/red days. It is possible to swap but the longer the trip, the harder it can be to swap. Simplifying/Fixing this is a big ticket item for Contract 2.0/JCBA
Reserves are 14 Long Call. 2.5 hour Short Call. Short call on for 10 hour on call, shorter closer to midnight and last day. Trips go to LC first, if more than 14 hours away, then SCL. Hours of Service rules prevent long duty days on SC. No preset blocks of RSV. You bid daily (can have a standing type bid) for Early AM, AM, Afternoon, and Late. Only Late silo can be assigned Redeyes. On Reserve you can pref bid very long blocks ON and the company has to figure when to give you your 30 hour rest (95% of the time equals more days OFF). Long call can convert the day prior to SCL 5 times/month w/ extra pay on top of guarantee. Average conversions are 0-2 times/month. If you hit guarantee before month over, either released or paid above guarantee if you sit the rest of your schedule. Only way for RSV to get above guarantee is to work over vacation or pick up PREM, RSA, or VDA (see below).
Not alot of showing up for one trip and flying something else like most airlines, even less rerouting past your originally scheduled footprint-as this incurs steep penalties and in some cases can only happen twice/year.
Multi day trips are mostly unproductive and not that commutable. Less clock flipping than there used to be but still exists. Fatigue calls work well if you can't adjust.
We get 35 hours credit per vacation week which equals half month off (good) but are lacking in the amount of weeks (bad-14 year guy gets 3 weeks). You can use sick/PTO to buy an extra week during yearly bidding. Sick can be paid (can call in well after one day) or unpaid (done for footprint of trip). Reserves get debited 4.2 per day of sick, even if assigned a trip.
Healthcare blows. high deduct, pain in arse to get seed money, high premiums.
Retirement good, 16%. VBA/retirement medical fund is new, unclear of it's value at this point. Kicked off healthcare when you retire. Accrue up 510 hours sick bank for cash out.
Not sure what your x/y list is but we have Premium at 150% (company's discretion when to offer), RSA 175% (extra day of on call for lineholder or RSV) and VDA at 200% (last minute uncoverable trips in seniority order for those who signed up). If it comes to VDA they'll start buying future trips if it overlaps what they need covered.
DH in aisle or window, Mint will NOT be assigned (can cancel DH and nonrev if available). We are terrible at booking DHs
We have profit sharing on the books, but in current form will never pay out anything substantial.
STD and LTD are both very good. STD premium is expensive, LTD base and Life Ins is free, can buy up additional.
Hotels have been getting better but probably more to do with signing contracts over COVID.
Scope, internets say we just sold it. I voted NO, but in reality the LOA is a long term carve out that for now takes advantage of AA's lack of scope. About a 90% chance it doesn't negatively affect us and probably helps alot.
Hours of service (actual and scheduled) pretty good,better than FARs. 14/16 hour schedule before/after redye.
Commuter policy, we have one, I don't use it not sure of how great it is
Happy to answer any specifics
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know you guys have the drop zero/rebuild, 4 days OFF between trips, what else in your contract should be cherry picked in a JCBA?
Could you explain the x/y list? Seniority based?
04-07-2022, 10:53 AM
#164
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 371
Originally Posted by Cyio
I don’t recall anyone saying we should get rid of it, I was just pointing out that until attrition stops it will be of little value to half the pilot group.
Im fully aware the CA side is green, but the FO not so much. I guess it’s great we are upgrading quickly, oh wait, nvm.
Im fully aware the CA side is green, but the FO not so much. I guess it’s great we are upgrading quickly, oh wait, nvm.
04-07-2022, 11:10 AM
#165
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 94
Originally Posted by Steelers
You should add that section 25 and our pairing construction is horrible and taken advantage of by managment.
Multi day trips are mostly unproductive and not that commutable
04-07-2022, 12:02 PM
#166
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Position: A319/A320/A321 CA
Posts: 363
Originally Posted by pilotpayne
Why would jetblue buy spirit just to park the planes?
04-07-2022, 12:24 PM
#167
Almost there
Joined APC: Apr 2021
Posts: 1,093
Originally Posted by MtnPeakCruiser
Because they will likely have to make concessions with antitrust regulators at airports where the combination will be seen as “bad for customers.” They will probably have trouble finding homes for those planes. Also Spirit already had plans to park those older leased planes and replace them with NEO deliveries going forward. I doubt JetBlue gets excited about repainting and reconfiguring those old and less efficient birds. Also something about pilot staffing issues comes to mind.
04-07-2022, 12:26 PM
#168
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 3,657
Originally Posted by PleaseComplete
It's the "it's worthless attitude" that is the beginning of the ambivalent attitude that equals giving up **** for nothing meaningful in return, stow that **** now sailor, in other words.
Again, I am not saying we should get rid of it.
04-07-2022, 01:02 PM
#169
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,788
Originally Posted by PleaseComplete
It's the "it's worthless attitude" that is the beginning of the ambivalent attitude that equals giving up **** for nothing meaningful in return, stow that **** now sailor, in other words.
04-07-2022, 01:30 PM
#170
CA-ORD
Joined APC: Mar 2022
Posts: 156
Originally Posted by FNGFO
Lighten up Francis. We don’t even know who we’re going to partner up with let alone if it will be approved. The union tough talk can simmer for now.
I'm very curious if the B6 offer will change the displacement strategy at all... I know there is no cooperation between the airlines before merger closing, but nobody can dispute that the displacement strategy really did mirror F9's basing structure... I know that we were told that the bid was cancelled for IT reasons (which it was) and that the company still has full intent to do displacements once the IT stuff is fixed, but we were told all of that before the B6 offer came out. B6 seems much more intent on directly challenging the legacies at their fortress hubs... DFW/ORD/DTW... maybe they will just leave us be in ORD? We were clearly told the strategy is to displace... until one day all of a sudden it is not.
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