vandypilot

Does the current contract specifically state no IRO's?

dn_wisconsin

Not that I can find but we have a scheduling section that is pretty specific on what kind of lines (relief, reserve, etc.) can be built and what rules they have. IRO is not one of them. I'm sure if our managment could shove it down our throats they would have. At least that's what they've done in the past. Either they don't think they can based on the current contract or maybe just maybe they wanted to find out if we would be willing to do it.

The only details I was given on the subject was management was interested in using IRO's for Lima. I guess they didn't want a crew wasted by sitting for 24 hours. Basically it would make Lima about and 11 hour out and back leaving around 7 at night and getting back around 6 in the morning........dangerous.

Sailor

(A DL 76 from Brazil landing in ATL's taxiway comes to mind.), and they get a decent seat to rest.

With our first class sitting for an almost normal 3 hr rest i dont think we could be so lucky.

Sniper

2 questions:

1. Does Spirit have duty rules that would limit (only certain times of the day can a duty period be scheduled over X hours) or prohibit (pilots are limited to X hours of time on an aircraft) this type of flying?
2. Supposing this type of flying is allowed (ie, it's not specifically prohibited), how would it be paid? 9 hours of flight pay, or 6 hours of flight pay, only paid when you're @ the controls?

The second option is perhaps more dangerous. For every pilot that recognizes the safety issue, another is willing to overlook it for the extra $.

• How does Spirit treat deadheading? Seated where (coach, BFS)? If there's a clause about 'DH time is duty time but not rest', then that might have some 'chilling effects' on IRO ops too.

Assuming this kind of flying is allowed (in that its not specifically not allowed, in typical management logic), there could still certainly be a fatigue issue. There's what, 4-8 'Big Front Seats' on an aircraft? Best case, block one of them with a curtain - would a pilot sitting in one of these seats lose some flying ability (ie, the ride as a passenger itself is fatiguing), or would it be 'neutral'? If you were seated in a single middle coach seat with no curtain (worst case), same questions - effects on fatigue? I ask only b/c I thought that Sun Country or some other US 737 operator flies some transatlantic stuff (with a stop in Gander or something) and uses a single coach seat for the IRO - I could be mistaken.

Probably all just a brain exercise, since a Bogota, Lima, Guayaquil or Quito overnight is possible too, though if Spirit operates 3 frequencies to BOG each day, it seems to line up nicely with a continuation to Lima, Guayaquil and Quito each, so 24 hours of fun in SA. What other US airlines have overnights in Guayaquil and Quito (if known, don't post specific hotel, obviously)?

captscott26

To my knowledge the IRO issue was brought up, and shot down, years ago. I hadn't heard the company brought it up again, but it doesn't surprise me.

dn_wisconsin

1. Not that I am aware of, we have quite a few redeyes. Right now our longest is FLL-PBG. It's blocked at around 6.5 leaves at 21:30 and gets back at 05:00. It wouldn't compare to a LIM out and back but that's the closests we have.

2. I think this is why the company came and asked. The contract only has flight pay and deadhead, no IRO pay. We receive 100% deadhead so in theory we could credit 11 hours for about 7 hours at the controls. I think that's a long shot, imagine how senior that would go. Work 10 days a month, block around 70-80 hours and credit 110.

3. Our deadhead seating states window or aisle if possible and we can move to a BFS if available in flight. They give us the BFS right away if they are an option but there isn't a guarantee. Our deadhead is considered duty time, if there is a loopwhole our management will find it. I'm hoping this was shot down by our union because they couldn't come to terms but I don't think we will ever know. The union hasn't been the best at sharing information in the past. Proven by Captscott's last post. I pretty sure he has something to do with our schedules but had no idea that IRO's were brought up recently.

RonnyK320

There's nothing stopping them from deadheading a crew down, and then deadheading the crew that flew down back, is there? That's what a lot of airlines do.

At U3K we IRO'd everywhere. It's actually not bad, it's nice to get 11 hours of pay for one day of work, it really maximizes your days off. We had no big front seats either. I'd be okay with that.

Ron

Left Handed

For question 1, yes we have a sentence or two in our contract that is well hidden, (in fact some schedulers don't know) that if your duty day touches anywhere between 1 and 4am the max scheduled duty day is limited to 11.5 hrs. Actual duty is limited to 12.5 hrs. You can continue, but it is your choice.

As for the seating, they are supposed to give us a BFS if available, but it usually doesn't work out. I would rather sit in a regular seat anyway, because the BFS seems to me have a flater bottom, and my buttocal region tends to fall asleep. The regular seat cushions I think have more of a slant to them, and it's more comfortable for me.

Sniper

'If possible'? So, a no-recline middle seat in coach is contractually just fine. Naturally, this kind of stuff would go senior too.

You're ok with that?

You do know that most every other airline (except CO) sits an IRO in a 60" pitch business class seat with a curtain, or a real bunk. CO 'slums it' with an entire row of coach and a curtain. There's a reason for the curtain - no passenger talking your ear off, no reading lamp in your eyes, the curtain cuts down on the noise.

Sitting in a 28" pitch 'seat' (pleather stretched between two pieces of metal, no cushion on Spirit A320's) with no recline next to a passenger who chats away for 5 hours with their light on is not 'preparation' for flying a 5 hour red-eye. USA 3000 (UK3) has 30" pitch seats, and I bet they recline too. NOBODY has a 28" pitch seat! Even Ryanair has 30" pitch.

How can you possibly accept a trip like this, given the potential for fatigue?

Plane Ramrod

We have no provision for IRO's, therefore, the conditions for the resting pilot have not yet been negotiated. It's this group's bargaining ability that scares me.