Spirit of NKS
01-21-2015 | 10:00 AM
#9772
Banned
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 784
Likes: 0
From: A-320
I'm off the fence. I think another way to think about it is that a concession is a concession. I'd rather vote it down with a fight and accept that outcome than vote yes with my tail between my legs. NO and freeeeeeeeeddoooooommmmm!
01-21-2015 | 10:04 AM
#9774
ULTP-Ultra Low Tier Pilot
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,228
Likes: 0
It's a "no" vote for me.
Listen guys, we need to come to the realization that there will be a lot of sack checking these next few years with negotiations, flipping 180 degrees over an IPad LOA because "the company may screw us more" doesn't bode well for a group going into Section 6.
Negotiations revolve around a lot of paper sliding across the table to one another. As a pilot group we MUST be willing to slide paper back to our NC and say "we are worth more" and "close, but let's get it a little better." It's that or we as a group rubber stamp anything but in front of us.
Heck, even the FAs had enough sack to turn down their TA, twice!
01-21-2015 | 10:05 AM
#9775
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
The absolute worst case scenerio is we vote this down and they require us to come in to an approved training location to train.
We vote yes = 10 hrs of pay, no conflicts, and training not counted as a day of work.
We vote no = We get 4 hrs training pay per day, it counts as 2 days of work, and we still have the opportunity for a conflict. (That is until its negotiated away next contract).
I have not been to ACY but Im pretty sure there isnt room in a trailer for a training room, DFW would be tough as well.
Also the only way they can add Ipad training to recurrent is to schedule another day of training which would pay 4 hours anyway.
I still see no reason to vote yes.
We vote yes = 10 hrs of pay, no conflicts, and training not counted as a day of work.
We vote no = We get 4 hrs training pay per day, it counts as 2 days of work, and we still have the opportunity for a conflict. (That is until its negotiated away next contract).
I have not been to ACY but Im pretty sure there isnt room in a trailer for a training room, DFW would be tough as well.
Also the only way they can add Ipad training to recurrent is to schedule another day of training which would pay 4 hours anyway.
I still see no reason to vote yes.
01-21-2015 | 10:06 AM
#9776
Banned
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 784
Likes: 0
From: A-320
I'm on board. My sack is checked. This is a good warm up
01-21-2015 | 10:16 AM
#9779
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 488
Likes: 0
From: 320 Left soon middle
This post is from Jason L. It is part of a thread at nkpilots.com I got permission to re-post it here.
Here is another post from the same thread. This one from Doug P. He asked me to post this here as well.
On the LOA for Ipad/Distance Based Learning...
The company has the upper hand on this one. And this is a good deal. Here is why.
The company could hold training in any city they want, FLL, LAS, JFK, or Timbuktu. With the Ipad training there choices are limitless. They are only required to provide travel to and from your domicile to the training location and hotel accommodations if it is away from your domicile. So the logical location they will choose is your domicile to eliminate the travel/hotel cost and associated trip drops that the travel incurs. Therefore, with or without this LOA, trips dropped for this type of travel are going to be a thing of the past. So if they choose your domicile you will be responsible to get to your domicile whether you drive or commute, and cover any costs of hotel at your domicile for your attendance. Only if you go below the minimum days off in 12E.2 (13 for line holders/relief and 12/13 for 30/31 day bid periods for reserve) are they required to restore a day off. And if they drop a trip they are free to have you attend training on those days. Any training on days off are credited at four hours above guarantee. Any training on days of dropped trips you retain the trip credit and do not receive any additional pay.
Some examples of what they could do right now without this LOA:
If you have 15 days off or more, and are a line holder/relief they could place 2 training days in you schedule, on your days off, at their choosing, not necessarily consecutively, and you will receive a total of 8hrs of pay. You will be at 13 days off so they do not have to restore any days.
If you have 14 days off, and are a line holder/relief they could place 2 training days in your schedule at their choosing, not necessarily consecutively, one on an off day and one in lieu of work, and you would receive a total of 4hrs of additional pay and would not have to restore any days off. But they may very well have you attend training at your domicile one day one month and one day the next month so as to keep you at the minimum days off thereby owing you nothing except your 8hrs of pay for the two months.
If you are at r above minimum days off, they could drop a trip or R days and have you attend training for no additional pay or restored days off. So for 2 days of training they could drop a two day trip, or a three/four day trip and make you time available for the remainder of days at your domicile, at your expense, for no additional pay.
They must only provide a space for such training suitable to the FAA, and that would be inexpensive and easy.
But there is another scenario they could employ right now without the LOA:
In the CBA 11.D.2 they are already permitted to conduct home training limited to one day a month, for no more than 8hrs, that is to be paid at 4hrs above your guarantee. The company could simply have you do one day one month and one day the next month and pay you 8hrs total above guarantee even if you are at your minimum days off. One could try to make the argument under 11.F.2 that you could not be given this on your grace early month. It would be a weak argument and would probably be denied by any arbitrator. Furthermore, there would be no argument whatsoever on giving you one day on your base month and one on your grace late month for a total of 8hrs of pay, even if you were on minimum days off, with no day off restoration. This was the "Runway Incursion" training issue 6 years ago for those that were here. This section has been in at least the last two CBA's and I believe in every SPA CBA.
The company can do this right now, without this LOA. I'm sure that your MEC/Negotiating Committee is well aware of this. I'm also sure that those that are spewing the BS are not. It is one thing to aspire to want more or better, but another to do so without being aware of your fallback position. So we have a choice, accept the LOA for 10hrs above your guarantee, with protections for repair or replacement of the Ipad, as long as you treat it with care like it were yours. Or reject the LOA and perhaps get anywhere from zero to 8hrs of additional pay, at best, with no guaranteed protections for repair or replacement with no recourse, because the company has the rights under the CBA already. It's your call.
Lastly, if the MEC/Negotiating Committee would have rejected this LOA, without moving this to the Spirit Pilots for a vote, and the company used the tools outlined above, that are already available to them, at your expense, you could bet that the same ones spewing their BS would be the first to blame ALPA for what happened.
Doug Poletti
1. Why have distance learning and iPads in the same LOA?
2. Why give anything to the company at all?
3. The company already invested into the software and hardware. They will get rid of paper Jepps no matter what. They really have no leverage here.
4. Why give up the soft credit for travel? (Especially true if you live in FLL and commute.)
5. Company will implement in base ground training once this LOA passes.
6. Distance learning will make you actually pay attention for 18 hours and stare at a screen as opposed to meditate in FLL while Bruce is explaining you the components of an ILS system in layman terms.
I sure wish these communications could be kept on a private board like this, versus APC.
I'll do my best to answer your questions and concerns.
1. I don't know the answer to that, and its a great question. I'll find out.
2. With the coming of in domicile recurrent ground school this seems like we are retaining a bit more than what would be lost from the loss of commuting. This is coming no matter what. The computer based recurrent has been approved by the FAA. That horse has left the stable. In domicile recurrent coming soon!
3. I agree with you. This is better than current book where if a chart set is damaged you can get a replacement for $50. With the iPad its $0.
4. The soft credit for travel is going away in any event. Our leverage here is obvious in this light.
5. In base ground training is coming with or without the LOA. We will lose the commuting rigs and conflicts associated with them, you will have to buy a hotel for several nights, and no per diem, either (sorry I love jabbing per diem for a buddy of mine).
6. True. But there's nothing quite like hearing the fact that we get noise abatement fines or credits if performing the FLL 10L departure wrong.... I am quite confident I can do this training in xxxxx or while enjoying an expensive 10 hour x pay rate drink.
Hit me with some more. I lost my login to APC about 7 years ago.
Jason Leonard
FLL FO Rep
Talk to me, Goose:
Call or text me at xxx-xxx-xxxx
[email protected]
ALPA does not yet endorse this board.
2. Why give anything to the company at all?
3. The company already invested into the software and hardware. They will get rid of paper Jepps no matter what. They really have no leverage here.
4. Why give up the soft credit for travel? (Especially true if you live in FLL and commute.)
5. Company will implement in base ground training once this LOA passes.
6. Distance learning will make you actually pay attention for 18 hours and stare at a screen as opposed to meditate in FLL while Bruce is explaining you the components of an ILS system in layman terms.
I sure wish these communications could be kept on a private board like this, versus APC.
I'll do my best to answer your questions and concerns.
1. I don't know the answer to that, and its a great question. I'll find out.
2. With the coming of in domicile recurrent ground school this seems like we are retaining a bit more than what would be lost from the loss of commuting. This is coming no matter what. The computer based recurrent has been approved by the FAA. That horse has left the stable. In domicile recurrent coming soon!
3. I agree with you. This is better than current book where if a chart set is damaged you can get a replacement for $50. With the iPad its $0.
4. The soft credit for travel is going away in any event. Our leverage here is obvious in this light.
5. In base ground training is coming with or without the LOA. We will lose the commuting rigs and conflicts associated with them, you will have to buy a hotel for several nights, and no per diem, either (sorry I love jabbing per diem for a buddy of mine).
6. True. But there's nothing quite like hearing the fact that we get noise abatement fines or credits if performing the FLL 10L departure wrong.... I am quite confident I can do this training in xxxxx or while enjoying an expensive 10 hour x pay rate drink.
Hit me with some more. I lost my login to APC about 7 years ago.
Jason Leonard
FLL FO Rep
Talk to me, Goose:
Call or text me at xxx-xxx-xxxx
[email protected]
ALPA does not yet endorse this board.
On the LOA for Ipad/Distance Based Learning...
The company has the upper hand on this one. And this is a good deal. Here is why.
The company could hold training in any city they want, FLL, LAS, JFK, or Timbuktu. With the Ipad training there choices are limitless. They are only required to provide travel to and from your domicile to the training location and hotel accommodations if it is away from your domicile. So the logical location they will choose is your domicile to eliminate the travel/hotel cost and associated trip drops that the travel incurs. Therefore, with or without this LOA, trips dropped for this type of travel are going to be a thing of the past. So if they choose your domicile you will be responsible to get to your domicile whether you drive or commute, and cover any costs of hotel at your domicile for your attendance. Only if you go below the minimum days off in 12E.2 (13 for line holders/relief and 12/13 for 30/31 day bid periods for reserve) are they required to restore a day off. And if they drop a trip they are free to have you attend training on those days. Any training on days off are credited at four hours above guarantee. Any training on days of dropped trips you retain the trip credit and do not receive any additional pay.
Some examples of what they could do right now without this LOA:
If you have 15 days off or more, and are a line holder/relief they could place 2 training days in you schedule, on your days off, at their choosing, not necessarily consecutively, and you will receive a total of 8hrs of pay. You will be at 13 days off so they do not have to restore any days.
If you have 14 days off, and are a line holder/relief they could place 2 training days in your schedule at their choosing, not necessarily consecutively, one on an off day and one in lieu of work, and you would receive a total of 4hrs of additional pay and would not have to restore any days off. But they may very well have you attend training at your domicile one day one month and one day the next month so as to keep you at the minimum days off thereby owing you nothing except your 8hrs of pay for the two months.
If you are at r above minimum days off, they could drop a trip or R days and have you attend training for no additional pay or restored days off. So for 2 days of training they could drop a two day trip, or a three/four day trip and make you time available for the remainder of days at your domicile, at your expense, for no additional pay.
They must only provide a space for such training suitable to the FAA, and that would be inexpensive and easy.
But there is another scenario they could employ right now without the LOA:
In the CBA 11.D.2 they are already permitted to conduct home training limited to one day a month, for no more than 8hrs, that is to be paid at 4hrs above your guarantee. The company could simply have you do one day one month and one day the next month and pay you 8hrs total above guarantee even if you are at your minimum days off. One could try to make the argument under 11.F.2 that you could not be given this on your grace early month. It would be a weak argument and would probably be denied by any arbitrator. Furthermore, there would be no argument whatsoever on giving you one day on your base month and one on your grace late month for a total of 8hrs of pay, even if you were on minimum days off, with no day off restoration. This was the "Runway Incursion" training issue 6 years ago for those that were here. This section has been in at least the last two CBA's and I believe in every SPA CBA.
The company can do this right now, without this LOA. I'm sure that your MEC/Negotiating Committee is well aware of this. I'm also sure that those that are spewing the BS are not. It is one thing to aspire to want more or better, but another to do so without being aware of your fallback position. So we have a choice, accept the LOA for 10hrs above your guarantee, with protections for repair or replacement of the Ipad, as long as you treat it with care like it were yours. Or reject the LOA and perhaps get anywhere from zero to 8hrs of additional pay, at best, with no guaranteed protections for repair or replacement with no recourse, because the company has the rights under the CBA already. It's your call.
Lastly, if the MEC/Negotiating Committee would have rejected this LOA, without moving this to the Spirit Pilots for a vote, and the company used the tools outlined above, that are already available to them, at your expense, you could bet that the same ones spewing their BS would be the first to blame ALPA for what happened.
Doug Poletti
Last edited by Normann; 01-21-2015 at 10:31 AM.
01-21-2015 | 10:20 AM
#9780
Banned
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 316
Likes: 0
From: Bus FO
Exactly. This sounds like many conversations had over in the regional forums "if we don't agree to this, we will lose flying"
It's a "no" vote for me.
Listen guys, we need to come to the realization that there will be a lot of sack checking these next few years with negotiations, flipping 180 degrees over an IPad LOA because "the company may screw us more" doesn't bode well for a group going into Section 6.
Negotiations revolve around a lot of paper sliding across the table to one another. As a pilot group we MUST be willing to slide paper back to our NC as say "we are worth more".
Heck, even the FAs had enough sack to turn down their TA, twice!
It's a "no" vote for me.
Listen guys, we need to come to the realization that there will be a lot of sack checking these next few years with negotiations, flipping 180 degrees over an IPad LOA because "the company may screw us more" doesn't bode well for a group going into Section 6.
Negotiations revolve around a lot of paper sliding across the table to one another. As a pilot group we MUST be willing to slide paper back to our NC as say "we are worth more".
Heck, even the FAs had enough sack to turn down their TA, twice!
I look at it like this: It's the beginning of the game and 4th and 1 at our own 20 yard line. Are we gonna go for it or punt? There is a lot of game left to be played. We don't have to win every battle to win the war, but we certainly don't want to put ourselves at a disadvantage that could end up costing us in the long run.
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