I don't but the negotiating committee does and straight from their mouths on the first conference call (read the transcript), there is no contract scenario that raised CASM above .06 (we are currently between .05 and .06). Are you telling me our NC didn't even run an industry leading contract scenario? People may not like them but they aren't that stupid I assure you.

What are these amazing work rules you speak of?

The amazing line purity, the low min duty period (NOT MIN DAY) average, the horrible trip rig, the low sick accrual, the 12 day off rsv lines, the red eye override, the eye turns that pay one duty period?

Oh you mean the transition conflict where if you work the first and last week of every month, bid lines you don't like, and are senior enough to get it every month you are might be lucky enough to get a 25% pay bump by working the system. Let me forego a 75-100% pay increase for that. Give me a break. So you like the time off from transition and don't care about the money? Go get a part time job if that's what you want. This is a career for most of us. Let me be clear, I'm not willing to change transition into what the company proposed by dropping just as they do now but not get pay protection. There are other solutions.

Oh you mean the 4 days off? You mean the one that has 6 day work blocks and no matter how senior you are you will probably have a line with different work days every week and have to work at least some weekends. Ask a southwest pilot how many days off they get in a row? Hint: 15-16 min days off per month usually gets you 4 days off or more in a row. If not there is a huge block of days off somewhere and guys will bid those lines of you don't.

Are these the amazing work rules you were referring to?

Yeah let me forgo a 75% raise, a 15-16% defined retirement contribution with no cap at $18k that also requires me to put in my own $18k to get, an ltd plan that protects the investment I made to get to this point in my career, and scope that prevents the airline from codesharing away any future growth.

Those are some real golden work rules

 

We do know how. That is why we have people from Spirit ALPA and from ALPA national working on the negotiations. Cost analysis is part of why you pay dues. Do you not think that Delta and United have a way to cost out contract items for their negotiations? Our peers are anyone else who flies the same number of people or plane type in the US. Yes, Not a chance if paid industry standard, and Again not a chance to your last three questions. Look at how much the company is making, do you think your extra seat worth of pay to come up to standard is going to break the bank?

 

Being a defeatist (or realist) has no affect if that person votes no against a substandard TA. However, that person is not as likely to demand what they should get just because they actually don't think they will get it. They also act as a cancer that manages everyone's expectations and could lead do others thinking and ultimately acting the same way. That's a fast track to passing a bottom feeder contract.

 

I say again, please don't be so naive you think that Alpa and our NC don't know what a proposal costs. Read the transcript. They know what it all costs. If you think spirit is going bankrupt if they give us an industry leading contract you are either delusional or think we play a much bigger part in the overall cost of running this place than we do. It's just math. They can afford it, and we can all keep going on this ulcc joy ride together at the same time.

This isn't a regional airline where they pass all costs along to the mainline carrier and labor is literally the only cost that they absorb themselves and has 1 for 1 percentage relationship where labor costs go down 1% and profits go up 1%.

This is a real airline and it doesn't work that way. We are a cost and also happen to be the highest cost labor group but a small blip on the overall cost radar. They can afford an industry leading contract easily I assure you.

 

Agree with all that, but again, please tell me how industry standard/leading will be achieved when management simply doesn't want to give it.

 

How did WN, DL, UA, and everyone else achieve the pay they deserve? Did their management "want to give it"? Think about it man, think!

Maybe we could start acting like a union, you thinK?

1300 pilots could get a contract in three months. Three negotiators haven't gotten a contract in 10 months.

But we do have a fully staffed OCC (with union leaders when the going gets tough) and Job fair workers. Which is nice.

 

By standing together and staying unified and not letting them undermine our unity. That is their goal. If outside forces such as attrition doesn't pay a part as you say it doesn't then pilot unity is their only roadblock. Convincing enough of us that we aren't worth as much as our union brothers at other airlines can get them a vote. Wearing us down only helps that cause. They are not going to shut down an airline because they don't want to pay a fair wage. They may do everything in their power not to pay it including stopping the operation completely for a period of time during a strike but they won't just shutter the place. They have shareholders and can't be that stubborn. They can afford it and will pay eventually if we stay unified and stop doing everyone else's job.

Yes there is a cost to us for not agreeing to slightly lower pay sooner but I think it costs us more in the long run because we will live under that contract for likely 8 years. I'd rather hold out and get a real contract. The more unified we are the sooner it happens.

 

I think everyone agrees they can easily afford it, I don't see how they will be willing to pay it short of a strike (which I'm not adverse to btw).

I would imagine the concern is, Spirit compete on price, and price alone. Nobody flies spirit for the experience. If there's industry standard labor cost across the board. Then Spirit is another SWA with God awful service and a different pricing scheme. Even still with a relatively lower fares. A new braniff or people express with 2/3 the labor costs could literally within 10 years wipe out spirit by pricing the duplicate routes $10 cheaper.

 

W-2's are available online for those asking earlier.

 

First off I'm talking about pilots not industry standard across the board. I don't negotiate for a completely replaceable FA (sounds harsh but true), get agents outsourced ramp services, managers, crew schedulers, dispatchers, or anyone in miramar. If they all want to be paid what is industry standard too then that's on them to negotiate but my Union doesn't include them at this point.

Spirit also doesn't just save money on labor. We do everything cheap. Real estate, training programs, optional features on the aircraft like mood lighting, etc. even the paint job was chosen because it's only two colors and cheap.

Our pay being best of breed will not make us United airlines or even for that matter southwest. CASM will not increase over $.06 according to the negotiators themselves.

The same reason a new people express will not wipe out spirit is the same reason we will not wipe out southwest. Critical mass. We will have enough critical mass for any startup to pose a real threat. When they do you buy them or crush them. If that doesn't happen then they are not a threat. This is the airline industry with many moving parts and we all know anything can happen but I'm not going to negotiate my compensation based on competition from some future nonexistent airline. That's silly. Let management do their job and worry about those things. I move airplanes and expect to get as much as I can for that service. It's that simple.