Threes in. Ironing a shirt at midnight and realizing I'm down to 6 or 7 hours of sleep (if I fall asleep RIGHT then) blows. The intent of the new rules is to provide a more rested, alert pilot. It's clear to me what 8 hours of sleep means.

stilllll no B lines out...

March 1st is when the new reps take office.

Nu

The DPA question is answered for me. The scales have decisively tipped out of their favor because of this suit. I wanted to believe but they just keep shooting themselves in the foot.

Not sure what that has to do with anything, but DAL's earnings and growth seem to be significantly higher than UAL's. LUV is the outlier imho... for some strange reason, and I am guessing it is the consistency of earnings, but it could be that they have been paying a dividend for the entire time that the legacies were struggling with BK... people pay up for LUV. Their multiple is double that of anybody else's. I don't have the guts to do it, because I am a permabull I guess, but I wouldn't be surprised to see short positions on LUV growing in the next few years as the legacies get their feet back under them. Jack is probably right that 40 is attainable for DAL, but UAL and AAL are gonna be interesting too... DYODD....

Here is the FAA's first communication on the subject. ALPA is simply telling you what the FAA has explained to them. ALPA has spent far more time and effort trying to insure its pilots are in compliance then any other union. I know you think their efforts have been terrible but that's your opinion. I have received a huge amount of communication from the union on 117. They have written a excellent app to help with compliance. They had trained people in every lounge I went into the first week. They set up a 24 hour 117 hotline. They have aggressively pushed the FAA to clarify gray areas and published timely answers when they have come out. I Jumpseat on many airlines. The non ALPA airlines have received nothing even remotely close to what ALPA has done.

Here is the FAA,s first word on the subject.

Carriers will be required to provide their crew with a 10-hour rest opportunityprior to commencing a duty period that includes flying. While the 10-rest period may include the amount of time it takes to get to or from a flightcrew member's house or hotel room, the actual amount of time required for a sleep opportunity may not be reduced
below 8 hours. In addition, the length of continuous time off during a 7-day period has been extended from 24 hours under the existing rules to 30 hours. Additional time off is required for individuals whose internal clock may be off because of flipping back and
forth between different time zones.

The fact that the FAA clarified the above to mean 10 hours off but not less then 8 hours in the room is not DALPA's fault.

I don't see where it says "behind the door". Sleep is sleep. Not getting ready for bed... not getting ready to go to work.

I don't accept less than 9hrs "behind the door". That gives me and my crew a half hour to get ready for bed and a half hour to get ready for work. That gives one a minimum of 8hrs sleep.

I did that before 117 and I'll do that now.

If my reps are not on board with this, they are not "scheduling with safety... period. I'll be contacting my reps today.

C'mon LTD, let's not apply logic or common sense to what it takes to actually be rested and alert prior to flying the plane. Were they really trying to build rules that allow pilots to get adequate rest or was this more of a PR stunt aimed at the public and victims families so they could feel good that "New rules are in place and safety has triumphed". Hey, pilots are required to sign documents that say they are well rested prior to flying (with no fear of getting called in to do a carpet dance for not doing so)....it's a fail safe system of safety right?

Seriously, I am glad there are people like you making an effort to get this right and ensure it functions for it's intended purpose. That is, to help pilots get the rest they need and be overall safer behind the controls as a result. Whatever is practiced at the beginning of FAR 117 implementation will be become the new "precedent" and legal benchmark for airline scheduling now and into the future. Beyond the safety aspect, it would be nice to know pilots are able to live happy, healthy lives, getting enough daily restorative sleep so they don't end a trip feeling like a zombie.

The question was not what each pilots need for sleep might be. I personally need at least 90 minutes in the room before I ever get to sleep. The question is what is FAR legal. That has been defined by the FAA to be 10 hours off with at least 8 hours in your room. Every pilots actual sleep opportunity is going to be different. You have to decide what is the minimum rest you need to be safe. I have delayed my pickup many times for various reasons. Never had Delta say a word about it. Do what you need to be rested. You are not however going to be charged with a FAR violation if you decide 8 hours in the room is sufficient.

IMHO since the FDP includes the 90 minute prior show time, the middle break is in the second half.

The problem I see arising is on the shorter flights sometimes the breaks are less than 2 hours.