Another opinion.

My opinion (worth exactly what you're paying to read it): A pilot who prefers less than 12 hours' rest may think he values his health, or may not care. I think that getting 9 hours of sleep and a decent breakfast (ie: 12-hrs minimum) is a bare minimum to maintain a semblance of health in this very unhealthy profession. Smokers may value their health, too. It doesn't mean they have a clue.

They didn't say 8 hours in the room from your own quote.

"Opportunity" - a set of circumstances that makes it possible to do something

If I'm not in my room, ready for bed; my circumstance to goto bed has not been meet.

This is what I will use!!! I hope our union can stand behind us.

I don't believe there is an attorney in the land, that could successfully argue post-incident, that the crew had the opportunity for 8hrs sleep with only 8hrs "behind the door"

Obviously, we will not agree on this interpretation.

I only wish my union would agree with this common sense interpretation and get this crystal clear in our favor... for once.

It may take crews calling them on this one to fix it. If I haven't eaten (how often do you get fed on a domestic flight?), need to shower or iron a shirt, these ancillary items need to come out of the layover time, not the sleep opportunity time. As long as we accept 8 hours behind the door as 8 hours of sleep opportunity, we can expect it see trips scheduled that way.

Back in the AF, sometimes we couldn't get mx to fix a recurring gripe...until we wrote it up off station. When it affects the operation, it gets noticed.

Amen! That is exactly the reason I brought this up.

Where did I say that ALPA's overall efforts on 117 have been terrible? I'm talking about ONE THING they are apparently getting wrong. It's an important thing. But it's only one thing. The rest of the information we've received from ALPA on 117 (including the app... although I wish it had the capability of downloading the rotation information into it), while a bit of a fire hose of information, has been pretty good IMO. Don't put words in my mouth, sailingfun.

Come on, sailingfun. I know you're smarter than that. This is basic Reading Comprehension 101 stuff. Where do you get "8 hours in the room" out of THAT?

What it DOES say (and so does the FAR) is that an opportunity for 8 hours of sleep is required. It's impossible for any human being to get 8 hours of sleep with only 8 hours in the room. Therefore, our contractual "8 hours behind the door" is a clear violation of FAR 117.

Sailingfun, please answer the following two questions. Answer them with a "yes" or "no." And then explain to me how exactly 8 hours behind the door is legal:

1 - If you only have 8 hours in a hotel room (from walking into the room to walking out of the room the next morning), do you have an opportunity for 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep?

2 - Does FAR 117 require an opportunity for 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep?

Not exactly. We still have the minimum 10 hour layover per FAR 117. They can't schedule it (and it can't be) any less than that. I don't expect the 8 hours behind the door to be an issue under normal circumstances. The 10 hour layover should allow a good 9+ hours in the room in most cases. It's the unusual circumstances (like a major snow storm where ground transportation to the hotel takes a lot longer than normal) where the 8 hour uninterrupted sleep opportunity will become a factor.

So, when an "I need 8 hour call" occurs, why not call them after you're fed & in bed? Then start the time when you hang up?

People hate the unknown and want an answer before the shutdown checklist is complete. This is a "you got plenty of time" bucket thing. Go to your hotel, make sure they have a room (it is always on the short layovers that they act like it is a total surprise that a Delta pilot is there) get settled in, THEN CALL.


A call to a local restaurant that delivers can save you time. If you have room mates, make sure they are ready for sleep as well.

And that STILL doesn't satisfy the requirement of FAR 117. You didn't allow for time the next morning to get ready. Per the FAR, you need an opportunity for 8 hours of sleep, not 8 hours in the room or 8 hours from laying down in bed. Unless you've found a way to brush your teeth, shower, shave, get dressed, and pack in your sleep, your suggestion still does not work.

Oh, and those two (or is it four?) don't look ready for sleep. :D

FAR117
Maximum Duty Period for a four leg day beginning during regular daytime hours (7AM-noon) for an unaugmented crew from Table B is 13 hours. Why schedule a 12:57 day with turns of 55 minutes (go through US customs), and two time through Atl with longest turn 40 minutes? Does that sound like you WILL need an extension? Aren't extensions supposed to be for unforeseen, not in the company's control events? The day could go exactly as planned. It could happen.