ICED
07-22-2016, 08:09 AM
#111
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Posts: 187
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
Hey I'm not criticizing UPS guys at all. Their negotiators did a great job and part of the reason for the four year delay was that we all know their mgmt breeds a very antagonistic relationship. Their mgmt did nothing to speed the process.
All I'm saying is that even great agreements, if years late, are mathematically not necessarily better than more modest agreements arrived at earlier in the process.
And yes I also acknowledge "time value of concessions" as part of the discussion.
All I'm saying is that even great agreements, if years late, are mathematically not necessarily better than more modest agreements arrived at earlier in the process.
And yes I also acknowledge "time value of concessions" as part of the discussion.
I'll wait for a good deal with QOL improvements.....you can vote yes if you like. You are missing the point....and being negative as always.
Have a blessed day!
07-22-2016, 08:46 AM
#112
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,116
When the fact certain concessionary TA-deux! Is put in front of this group...... we better make up our minds to reject it at 99%......because anything less would be a total fail.
If our goal is altering the metric of trading value in the pwa.... to achieve marginal improvements.... we should not accept, or vote in the affirmative based on component sections. There should be n-o section of the working agreement that contains steps backwards.
If our goal is altering the metric of trading value in the pwa.... to achieve marginal improvements.... we should not accept, or vote in the affirmative based on component sections. There should be n-o section of the working agreement that contains steps backwards.
07-22-2016, 09:16 AM
#113
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 60
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
If I had a dollar for every post which claimed that "this agreement will define our careers for decades to come" I would have a whole lot of dollars. And yet it wouldn't be true.
Also, UPS pilots got a great TA--no disagreement. But it is also four years after the amendable date, without a full retro--that would be nearly impossible after being four years delayed. If I were a UPS pilot, I would certainly vote "Yes"...and yet, if the exact same value were part of a TA ON the amendable date (vs four years late) it would not be some spectacular "hey look at this!" TA. It would have been a modest, gain upon gain over four years type of agreement. It would probably have generated a lot of heated "I'm voting NO!" posts.
Also, UPS pilots got a great TA--no disagreement. But it is also four years after the amendable date, without a full retro--that would be nearly impossible after being four years delayed. If I were a UPS pilot, I would certainly vote "Yes"...and yet, if the exact same value were part of a TA ON the amendable date (vs four years late) it would not be some spectacular "hey look at this!" TA. It would have been a modest, gain upon gain over four years type of agreement. It would probably have generated a lot of heated "I'm voting NO!" posts.
It is not about hourly rates. It is not about length of contract. It is about QUALITY OF LIFE.
If you GIVE productivity in the forms of increased ALV for example, you're not getting that back without giving something MAJOR up.
A contract in today's environment should not be laden with concessions. This is a chance in the midst of a pilot shortage and regional airlines on life support to MAKE GAINS. At a later time the BK court will take said gains and with a shred of luck reduce us to nothing less than we have today.
Working on vacation? No. If that is the case and they want that caveat in there, then we should be able to add flying on vacation. And if you're worked on a vacation day you get the extra day back on the end of your vacation, even if it touches another rotation. Along with positive space home, or to wherever your family is at when your vacation was origionally scheduled to begin.
So as pilots we can not plan anything on day 1 of vacation in case the company needs us that day? No thanks.
If I incur third degree burns in a freak gasoline fight accident (Zoolander) and verify those. Then come back to work for a month then get explosive diarrhea and can't go to work, I then have to go to my doctor and get a $50 note at my expense to confirm that I am in fact battling Taco Bell?
You can't get this stuff back once you give it up guys. If it takes them four years to get it right, so be it. Pretty soon new hires will notice the difference between our $70/hr start rate and everyone else at $90+. That is when you'll see "them" play ball.
Virtual basing? That language has zero business being in our PWA. What happens if you're sick at a VB? Same as the FAs where you need to find your own replacement?
This deep thought was brought to you by the Derek Zoolander Center for Kids who want to learn to read well and want to learn to do other things well too.
07-22-2016, 09:18 AM
#114
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Posts: 187
Originally Posted by BobZ
When the fact certain concessionary TA-deux! Is put in front of this group...... we better make up our minds to reject it at 99%......because anything less would be a total fail.
If our goal is altering the metric of trading value in the pwa.... to achieve marginal improvements.... we should not accept, or vote in the affirmative based on component sections. There should be n-o section of the working agreement that contains steps backwards.
If our goal is altering the metric of trading value in the pwa.... to achieve marginal improvements.... we should not accept, or vote in the affirmative based on component sections. There should be n-o section of the working agreement that contains steps backwards.
Write your reps. Let them know what you think of the Neogtiator's Notepad. If a TA that resembles the Pay rates and crap we've seen is presented to our reps....it should be an easy no vote of they hear from us. This stuff should never make it to a membership vote.
07-22-2016, 09:30 AM
#115
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,503
Originally Posted by Chris Hansen
My two cents, which is worth exactly what you paid for it.
It is not about hourly rates. It is not about length of contract. It is about QUALITY OF LIFE.
If you GIVE productivity in the forms of increased ALV for example, you're not getting that back without giving something MAJOR up.
A contract in today's environment should not be laden with concessions. This is a chance in the midst of a pilot shortage and regional airlines on life support to MAKE GAINS. At a later time the BK court will take said gains and with a shred of luck reduce us to nothing less than we have today.
Working on vacation? No. If that is the case and they want that caveat in there, then we should be able to add flying on vacation. And if you're worked on a vacation day you get the extra day back on the end of your vacation, even if it touches another rotation. Along with positive space home, or to wherever your family is at when your vacation was origionally scheduled to begin.
So as pilots we can not plan anything on day 1 of vacation in case the company needs us that day? No thanks.
If I incur third degree burns in a freak gasoline fight accident (Zoolander) and verify those. Then come back to work for a month then get explosive diarrhea and can't go to work, I then have to go to my doctor and get a $50 note at my expense to confirm that I am in fact battling Taco Bell?
You can't get this stuff back once you give it up guys. If it takes them four years to get it right, so be it. Pretty soon new hires will notice the difference between our $70/hr start rate and everyone else at $90+. That is when you'll see "them" play ball.
Virtual basing? That language has zero business being in our PWA. What happens if you're sick at a VB? Same as the FAs where you need to find your own replacement?
This deep thought was brought to you by the Derek Zoolander Center for Kids who want to learn to read well and want to learn to do other things well too.
It is not about hourly rates. It is not about length of contract. It is about QUALITY OF LIFE.
If you GIVE productivity in the forms of increased ALV for example, you're not getting that back without giving something MAJOR up.
A contract in today's environment should not be laden with concessions. This is a chance in the midst of a pilot shortage and regional airlines on life support to MAKE GAINS. At a later time the BK court will take said gains and with a shred of luck reduce us to nothing less than we have today.
Working on vacation? No. If that is the case and they want that caveat in there, then we should be able to add flying on vacation. And if you're worked on a vacation day you get the extra day back on the end of your vacation, even if it touches another rotation. Along with positive space home, or to wherever your family is at when your vacation was origionally scheduled to begin.
So as pilots we can not plan anything on day 1 of vacation in case the company needs us that day? No thanks.
If I incur third degree burns in a freak gasoline fight accident (Zoolander) and verify those. Then come back to work for a month then get explosive diarrhea and can't go to work, I then have to go to my doctor and get a $50 note at my expense to confirm that I am in fact battling Taco Bell?
You can't get this stuff back once you give it up guys. If it takes them four years to get it right, so be it. Pretty soon new hires will notice the difference between our $70/hr start rate and everyone else at $90+. That is when you'll see "them" play ball.
Virtual basing? That language has zero business being in our PWA. What happens if you're sick at a VB? Same as the FAs where you need to find your own replacement?
This deep thought was brought to you by the Derek Zoolander Center for Kids who want to learn to read well and want to learn to do other things well too.
07-22-2016, 09:44 AM
#116
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,868
Originally Posted by Chris Hansen
My two cents, which is worth exactly what you paid for it.
It is not about hourly rates. It is not about length of contract. It is about QUALITY OF LIFE.
If you GIVE productivity in the forms of increased ALV for example, you're not getting that back without giving something MAJOR up.
A contract in today's environment should not be laden with concessions. This is a chance in the midst of a pilot shortage and regional airlines on life support to MAKE GAINS. At a later time the BK court will take said gains and with a shred of luck reduce us to nothing less than we have today.
Working on vacation? No. If that is the case and they want that caveat in there, then we should be able to add flying on vacation. And if you're worked on a vacation day you get the extra day back on the end of your vacation, even if it touches another rotation. Along with positive space home, or to wherever your family is at when your vacation was origionally scheduled to begin.
So as pilots we can not plan anything on day 1 of vacation in case the company needs us that day? No thanks.
If I incur third degree burns in a freak gasoline fight accident (Zoolander) and verify those. Then come back to work for a month then get explosive diarrhea and can't go to work, I then have to go to my doctor and get a $50 note at my expense to confirm that I am in fact battling Taco Bell?
You can't get this stuff back once you give it up guys. If it takes them four years to get it right, so be it. Pretty soon new hires will notice the difference between our $70/hr start rate and everyone else at $90+. That is when you'll see "them" play ball.
Virtual basing? That language has zero business being in our PWA. What happens if you're sick at a VB? Same as the FAs where you need to find your own replacement?
This deep thought was brought to you by the Derek Zoolander Center for Kids who want to learn to read well and want to learn to do other things well too.
It is not about hourly rates. It is not about length of contract. It is about QUALITY OF LIFE.
If you GIVE productivity in the forms of increased ALV for example, you're not getting that back without giving something MAJOR up.
A contract in today's environment should not be laden with concessions. This is a chance in the midst of a pilot shortage and regional airlines on life support to MAKE GAINS. At a later time the BK court will take said gains and with a shred of luck reduce us to nothing less than we have today.
Working on vacation? No. If that is the case and they want that caveat in there, then we should be able to add flying on vacation. And if you're worked on a vacation day you get the extra day back on the end of your vacation, even if it touches another rotation. Along with positive space home, or to wherever your family is at when your vacation was origionally scheduled to begin.
So as pilots we can not plan anything on day 1 of vacation in case the company needs us that day? No thanks.
If I incur third degree burns in a freak gasoline fight accident (Zoolander) and verify those. Then come back to work for a month then get explosive diarrhea and can't go to work, I then have to go to my doctor and get a $50 note at my expense to confirm that I am in fact battling Taco Bell?
You can't get this stuff back once you give it up guys. If it takes them four years to get it right, so be it. Pretty soon new hires will notice the difference between our $70/hr start rate and everyone else at $90+. That is when you'll see "them" play ball.
Virtual basing? That language has zero business being in our PWA. What happens if you're sick at a VB? Same as the FAs where you need to find your own replacement?
This deep thought was brought to you by the Derek Zoolander Center for Kids who want to learn to read well and want to learn to do other things well too.
Great post. I really, really would like to be able to vote yes but I don't think it is gonna turn out that way.
In honor of your very sage post complete with Zoolander references I hereby nominate you for the first annual Charles Montgomery Burns award for outstanding achievement in the field of excellence.
Scoop :-)
07-22-2016, 09:45 AM
#118
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Position: I got into this business so I wouldn't have to work.
Posts: 1,034
Originally Posted by Chris Hansen
My two cents, which is worth exactly what you paid for it.
It is not about hourly rates. It is not about length of contract. It is about QUALITY OF LIFE.
If you GIVE productivity in the forms of increased ALV for example, you're not getting that back without giving something MAJOR up.
A contract in today's environment should not be laden with concessions. This is a chance in the midst of a pilot shortage and regional airlines on life support to MAKE GAINS. At a later time the BK court will take said gains and with a shred of luck reduce us to nothing less than we have today.
Working on vacation? No. If that is the case and they want that caveat in there, then we should be able to add flying on vacation. And if you're worked on a vacation day you get the extra day back on the end of your vacation, even if it touches another rotation. Along with positive space home, or to wherever your family is at when your vacation was origionally scheduled to begin.
So as pilots we can not plan anything on day 1 of vacation in case the company needs us that day? No thanks.
If I incur third degree burns in a freak gasoline fight accident (Zoolander) and verify those. Then come back to work for a month then get explosive diarrhea and can't go to work, I then have to go to my doctor and get a $50 note at my expense to confirm that I am in fact battling Taco Bell?
You can't get this stuff back once you give it up guys. If it takes them four years to get it right, so be it. Pretty soon new hires will notice the difference between our $70/hr start rate and everyone else at $90+. That is when you'll see "them" play ball.
Virtual basing? That language has zero business being in our PWA. What happens if you're sick at a VB? Same as the FAs where you need to find your own replacement?
This deep thought was brought to you by the Derek Zoolander Center for Kids who want to learn to read well and want to learn to do other things well too.
It is not about hourly rates. It is not about length of contract. It is about QUALITY OF LIFE.
If you GIVE productivity in the forms of increased ALV for example, you're not getting that back without giving something MAJOR up.
A contract in today's environment should not be laden with concessions. This is a chance in the midst of a pilot shortage and regional airlines on life support to MAKE GAINS. At a later time the BK court will take said gains and with a shred of luck reduce us to nothing less than we have today.
Working on vacation? No. If that is the case and they want that caveat in there, then we should be able to add flying on vacation. And if you're worked on a vacation day you get the extra day back on the end of your vacation, even if it touches another rotation. Along with positive space home, or to wherever your family is at when your vacation was origionally scheduled to begin.
So as pilots we can not plan anything on day 1 of vacation in case the company needs us that day? No thanks.
If I incur third degree burns in a freak gasoline fight accident (Zoolander) and verify those. Then come back to work for a month then get explosive diarrhea and can't go to work, I then have to go to my doctor and get a $50 note at my expense to confirm that I am in fact battling Taco Bell?
You can't get this stuff back once you give it up guys. If it takes them four years to get it right, so be it. Pretty soon new hires will notice the difference between our $70/hr start rate and everyone else at $90+. That is when you'll see "them" play ball.
Virtual basing? That language has zero business being in our PWA. What happens if you're sick at a VB? Same as the FAs where you need to find your own replacement?
This deep thought was brought to you by the Derek Zoolander Center for Kids who want to learn to read well and want to learn to do other things well too.
07-22-2016, 10:01 AM
#119
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by Chris Hansen
My two cents, which is worth exactly what you paid for it.
It is not about hourly rates. It is not about length of contract. It is about QUALITY OF LIFE.
If you GIVE productivity in the forms of increased ALV for example, you're not getting that back without giving something MAJOR up.
A contract in today's environment should not be laden with concessions. This is a chance in the midst of a pilot shortage and regional airlines on life support to MAKE GAINS. At a later time the BK court will take said gains and with a shred of luck reduce us to nothing less than we have today.
Working on vacation? No. If that is the case and they want that caveat in there, then we should be able to add flying on vacation. And if you're worked on a vacation day you get the extra day back on the end of your vacation, even if it touches another rotation. Along with positive space home, or to wherever your family is at when your vacation was origionally scheduled to begin.
So as pilots we can not plan anything on day 1 of vacation in case the company needs us that day? No thanks.
If I incur third degree burns in a freak gasoline fight accident (Zoolander) and verify those. Then come back to work for a month then get explosive diarrhea and can't go to work, I then have to go to my doctor and get a $50 note at my expense to confirm that I am in fact battling Taco Bell?
You can't get this stuff back once you give it up guys. If it takes them four years to get it right, so be it. Pretty soon new hires will notice the difference between our $70/hr start rate and everyone else at $90+. That is when you'll see "them" play ball.
Virtual basing? That language has zero business being in our PWA. What happens if you're sick at a VB? Same as the FAs where you need to find your own replacement?
This deep thought was brought to you by the Derek Zoolander Center for Kids who want to learn to read well and want to learn to do other things well too.
It is not about hourly rates. It is not about length of contract. It is about QUALITY OF LIFE.
If you GIVE productivity in the forms of increased ALV for example, you're not getting that back without giving something MAJOR up.
A contract in today's environment should not be laden with concessions. This is a chance in the midst of a pilot shortage and regional airlines on life support to MAKE GAINS. At a later time the BK court will take said gains and with a shred of luck reduce us to nothing less than we have today.
Working on vacation? No. If that is the case and they want that caveat in there, then we should be able to add flying on vacation. And if you're worked on a vacation day you get the extra day back on the end of your vacation, even if it touches another rotation. Along with positive space home, or to wherever your family is at when your vacation was origionally scheduled to begin.
So as pilots we can not plan anything on day 1 of vacation in case the company needs us that day? No thanks.
If I incur third degree burns in a freak gasoline fight accident (Zoolander) and verify those. Then come back to work for a month then get explosive diarrhea and can't go to work, I then have to go to my doctor and get a $50 note at my expense to confirm that I am in fact battling Taco Bell?
You can't get this stuff back once you give it up guys. If it takes them four years to get it right, so be it. Pretty soon new hires will notice the difference between our $70/hr start rate and everyone else at $90+. That is when you'll see "them" play ball.
Virtual basing? That language has zero business being in our PWA. What happens if you're sick at a VB? Same as the FAs where you need to find your own replacement?
This deep thought was brought to you by the Derek Zoolander Center for Kids who want to learn to read well and want to learn to do other things well too.
Make up your mind.
You can't learn to read well and learn to do other things well too at the same time.
What do you really want?
07-22-2016, 10:16 AM
#120
Sick of whiners
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Position: 767 VEOP
Posts: 507
Originally Posted by Chris Hansen
My two cents, which is worth exactly what you paid for it.
Working on vacation? No. If that is the case and they want that caveat in there, then we should be able to add flying on vacation. And if you're worked on a vacation day you get the extra day back on the end of your vacation, even if it touches another rotation. Along with positive space home, or to wherever your family is at when your vacation was origionally scheduled to begin.
So as pilots we can not plan anything on day 1 of vacation in case the company needs us that day? No thanks. .
Working on vacation? No. If that is the case and they want that caveat in there, then we should be able to add flying on vacation. And if you're worked on a vacation day you get the extra day back on the end of your vacation, even if it touches another rotation. Along with positive space home, or to wherever your family is at when your vacation was origionally scheduled to begin.
So as pilots we can not plan anything on day 1 of vacation in case the company needs us that day? No thanks. .
I saw that odd vacation rule and wondered why? Well, I asked my CP and guess what?
There have been senior dudes, who PBS bid a trip that blocks in after 23:00 on the night before vacation starts. They also bid a HUGE trip that begins on the day after their vacation ends. Then it's a simple matter of coming up with an excuse that gets their flight late to their base > 23:31. BINGO, huge trip gets dropped and paid and vacation magically inflates.
Don't get me wrong... I'm all for max-performing the PWA to my advantage. But this new vacation rule is strictly a knee-jerk reaction to a few "max-performers", who were pulling a fast one on the company and now we ALL have to live with it. Or not. Vote no if this chaps your a$$, but once I understood the background, I don't really care about this one. I'm not senior enough to be able to bid that precisely anyway.
.
BTW, I am DEFINITELY a NO vote! That Negotiators Notepad was printed using Trebuchet typeface.
.
I HATE Trebuchet typeface, so chalk me up as a strong NO vote.
.
Last edited by KnotSoFast; 07-22-2016 at 10:30 AM.
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