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Old 07-22-2016, 04:53 AM
  #101  
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The guys who are saying "that's not so bad" are missing the point. Even if nothing changes, in this environment, that's unacceptable. But stuff has changed. Overwhelmingly for the worst. If we can't make improvements now, we never will.

Guys with decades left need to consider how this contract will set a precedent for the rest of your careers.

UPS pilots had the guts to see it through and were rewarded. Will we have the resolve to take the time and make the necessary changes (adios to at least 3 of the negotiators) to knock it out if the park? What we se here is a swinging bunt...out at first.
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Old 07-22-2016, 05:27 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by Banzai View Post
If I read it right; 1 hour of credit, but not on top of guarantee. So really, pretty much nothing unless you fly guarantee. But if you don't get called on short call, what are the odds that you'll fly the guarantee or above. This little item isn't even worth the ink to print it, if I read it right. I hope they didn't spend a lot of time hashing that one out.
Seems like they spent at least 7 months so far...That said, this has to be the biggest joke I've seen...since the 5 cent per diem increase in NA15. Is the company intentionally trying to pi$$ us off?
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Old 07-22-2016, 05:36 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by Scoop View Post
Underwhelming for sure but it appears to be a lot better than TA-1

The 1 hour credit for SC seems like this deals version of the 5 cent per diem raise. 1 hour credit for a SC - wow I guest I will start bidding reserve ASAP!

Scoop
...And it's TOWARD the guarantee, not above it. Just sounds like incentive for the company to fly you, which I personally don't want when I'm on reserve and haven't yellow slipped.
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Old 07-22-2016, 06:55 AM
  #104  
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Where are the QOL improvements? Everything is concessionary.

I'm not paying for pay rates. NFW.

And vacation? Ours sucks! Anything less than 200 hours/year is a fail.
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Old 07-22-2016, 07:03 AM
  #105  
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VB wasn't on my wish list or show up anywhere in the polling I participated in. My initial thought is this is a huge give. Sick leave is worse (removal of voluntary verification).

Unless my pay and vacation are both about to be doubled, this won't be something I vote yes for. I'll wait.
My reps have been given this feedback.
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Old 07-22-2016, 07:17 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by Raging white View Post
VB wasn't on my wish list or show up anywhere in the polling I participated in. My initial thought is this is a huge give. Sick leave is worse (removal of voluntary verification).

Unless my pay and vacation are both about to be doubled, this won't be something I vote yes for. I'll wait.
My reps have been given this feedback.

I've given input to my reps on the same issues.

Apparently, the Notepad isn't completely transparent since they didn't mention the stuff that was already agreed to that they now have to go back and change.

If this is how the negotiators work, then they all need to go fly the line. Sooner rather than later.
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Old 07-22-2016, 07:39 AM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by Purple Drank View Post
The guys who are saying "that's not so bad" are missing the point. Even if nothing changes, in this environment, that's unacceptable. But stuff has changed. Overwhelmingly for the worst. If we can't make improvements now, we never will.

Guys with decades left need to consider how this contract will set a precedent for the rest of your careers.

UPS pilots had the guts to see it through and were rewarded. Will we have the resolve to take the time and make the necessary changes (adios to at least 3 of the negotiators) to knock it out if the park? What we se here is a swinging bunt...out at first.
If I had a dollar for every post which claimed that "this agreement will define our careers for decades to come" I would have a whole lot of dollars. And yet it wouldn't be true.

Also, UPS pilots got a great TA--no disagreement. But it is also four years after the amendable date, without a full retro--that would be nearly impossible after being four years delayed. If I were a UPS pilot, I would certainly vote "Yes"...and yet, if the exact same value were part of a TA ON the amendable date (vs four years late) it would not be some spectacular "hey look at this!" TA. It would have been a modest, gain upon gain over four years type of agreement. It would probably have generated a lot of heated "I'm voting NO!" posts.
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Old 07-22-2016, 08:16 AM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by Herkflyr View Post
If I had a dollar for every post which claimed that "this agreement will define our careers for decades to come" I would have a whole lot of dollars. And yet it wouldn't be true.

Also, UPS pilots got a great TA--no disagreement. But it is also four years after the amendable date, without a full retro--that would be nearly impossible after being four years delayed. If I were a UPS pilot, I would certainly vote "Yes"...and yet, if the exact same value were part of a TA ON the amendable date (vs four years late) it would not be some spectacular "hey look at this!" TA. It would have been a modest, gain upon gain over four years type of agreement. It would probably have generated a lot of heated "I'm voting NO!" posts.
You are missing the point. The reason it did take 4 years was the fact that the original TA obviously did not contain "the exact same value."

Scoop

You are playing Monday morning QB here.
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Old 07-22-2016, 08:24 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by Herkflyr View Post
...and yet, if the exact same value were part of a TA ON the amendable date (vs four years late) it would not be some spectacular "hey look at this!" TA. It would have been a modest, gain upon gain over four years type of agreement. It would probably have generated a lot of heated "I'm voting NO!" posts.

I think I see what you are saying. Now, I fully understand that UPS was starting from a higher $$$/hr than us, but in regressing their TA gains to account for the many years past the amendable date, their TA is very close to-

3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3/

where the BOLD is the immediate TA 14% raise on signing in Sept run backwards 4 yrs.
.

I still like their TA a lot though.
.
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Old 07-22-2016, 08:45 AM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by Scoop View Post
You are missing the point. The reason it did take 4 years was the fact that the original TA obviously did not contain "the exact same value."

Scoop

You are playing Monday morning QB here.
Hey I'm not criticizing UPS guys at all. Their negotiators did a great job and part of the reason for the four year delay was that we all know their mgmt breeds a very antagonistic relationship. Their mgmt did nothing to speed the process.

All I'm saying is that even great agreements, if years late, are mathematically not necessarily better than more modest agreements arrived at earlier in the process.

And yes I also acknowledge "time value of concessions" as part of the discussion.
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