Flow confirmed
05-26-2021 | 07:11 AM
#301
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 313
Likes: 2
Question to mainline pilots hanging out on this thread: What has DALPA given up on behalf of Endeavor pilots over the last 7 or so years?
Allow me to explain what I mean:
I get your scope argument, I really do. And I support your goal of protecting scope. That said, saying no to this deal would be an insanely risky move for us with very little benefit.
If we say no to this deal, Delta will almost certainly cancel our "guaranteed" interview program, and likely take flying away from us or even shut down Endeavor completely. We'll be left at a shrinking airline without any secure path to Delta. In that situation I think most of us will jump ship to United, JetBlue, FedEx, Spirit, UPS, Frontier, etc. and at that point Delta scope doesn't do squat for us.
Asking us to give up a major airline job offer and risk losing our jobs completely is a pretty big ask. Have Delta pilots/DALPA done anything that big for us? I'd say no, but if you think the answer is yes feel free to make that argument.
Asking us to lay down our jobs for you when you won't spend so much as an ounce of negotiating capital to support our goals is the height of the infamous Delta arrogance.
Allow me to explain what I mean:
I get your scope argument, I really do. And I support your goal of protecting scope. That said, saying no to this deal would be an insanely risky move for us with very little benefit.
If we say no to this deal, Delta will almost certainly cancel our "guaranteed" interview program, and likely take flying away from us or even shut down Endeavor completely. We'll be left at a shrinking airline without any secure path to Delta. In that situation I think most of us will jump ship to United, JetBlue, FedEx, Spirit, UPS, Frontier, etc. and at that point Delta scope doesn't do squat for us.
Asking us to give up a major airline job offer and risk losing our jobs completely is a pretty big ask. Have Delta pilots/DALPA done anything that big for us? I'd say no, but if you think the answer is yes feel free to make that argument.
Asking us to lay down our jobs for you when you won't spend so much as an ounce of negotiating capital to support our goals is the height of the infamous Delta arrogance.
05-26-2021 | 07:25 AM
#302
New Hire
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
You're not taking a bullet for the Delta pilot group, you're dodging a bullet aimed at the E9 pilots. Voting no for this (if you get to vote) helps both groups, not just 1. Doesn't it make you scratch your head that there was ZERO negotiation at your MEC level and now they want to ram-rod this down your throats without a vote?
I recognize this is a done deal at the E9 level, too many Americans will trade their future for something shiny now, I don't agree with that attitude but I accept that lack of wisdom prevails. Delta management is the typical playground bully, you don't negotiation or reason with bullies, you kick their butts. We may win or lose in arbitration but the only way Delta management learns a lesson is a good kick in the teeth, hopefully they get one in this instance.
I recognize this is a done deal at the E9 level, too many Americans will trade their future for something shiny now, I don't agree with that attitude but I accept that lack of wisdom prevails. Delta management is the typical playground bully, you don't negotiation or reason with bullies, you kick their butts. We may win or lose in arbitration but the only way Delta management learns a lesson is a good kick in the teeth, hopefully they get one in this instance.
It's far easier to say "give Delta a kick in the teeth" when you're backed by DELTA's ALPA. When you work at a wholly-owned regional with turbulent prospects of career progression, it's a big ask to stand up for an airline and a pilot group that you may never be welcomed into. We aren't trying to "trade our future for something shiny" - this flow agreement is not shiny (unless you're the top 60 pilots eligible for it); we're trying to negotiate meaningful progression without closing off avenues of future negotiation with the only major we're capable of partnering with.
At the end of the day, the Delta MEC has plenty of firepower in the upcoming arbitration, and this "ramrod" flow may serve as a quid for DALPA to exchange for better scope in the future.
05-26-2021 | 07:25 AM
#303
Banned
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 1,164
Likes: 2
Thank you for interest in our MEC business. While we greatly appreciate you giving us advice that benefits your MEC and not ours. I think we collectively will disregard that advice. DALPA sees this as a contract violation as spelled out in JA’s letter. Let DALPA use their tools to fight this contract violation. Don’t come here spewing your high and mighty crap about how we are undercutting the industry. This is not Skywest. Remember, Delta pilots gave up that scope in the first place, not Endeavor pilots.
If EDVALPA kills this, is DALPA going to use their collective bargaining power to secure progression for Endeavor pilots?
If EDVALPA kills this, is DALPA going to use their collective bargaining power to secure progression for Endeavor pilots?
Last edited by LAXtoDEN; 05-26-2021 at 07:37 AM.
05-26-2021 | 07:26 AM
#304
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 13,223
Likes: 670
From: ir.delta.com
Question to mainline pilots hanging out on this thread: What has DALPA given up on behalf of Endeavor pilots over the last 7 or so years?
Allow me to explain what I mean:
I get your scope argument, I really do. And I support your goal of protecting scope. That said, saying no to this deal would be an insanely risky move for us with very little benefit.
If we say no to this deal, Delta will almost certainly cancel our "guaranteed" interview program, and likely take flying away from us or even shut down Endeavor completely. We'll be left at a shrinking airline without any secure path to Delta. In that situation I think most of us will jump ship to United, JetBlue, FedEx, Spirit, UPS, Frontier, etc. and at that point Delta scope doesn't do squat for us.
Asking us to give up a major airline job offer and risk losing our jobs completely is a pretty big ask. Have Delta pilots/DALPA done anything that big for us? I'd say no, but if you think the answer is yes feel free to make that argument.
Asking us to lay down our jobs for you when you won't spend so much as an ounce of negotiating capital to support our goals is the height of the infamous Delta arrogance.
Allow me to explain what I mean:
I get your scope argument, I really do. And I support your goal of protecting scope. That said, saying no to this deal would be an insanely risky move for us with very little benefit.
If we say no to this deal, Delta will almost certainly cancel our "guaranteed" interview program, and likely take flying away from us or even shut down Endeavor completely. We'll be left at a shrinking airline without any secure path to Delta. In that situation I think most of us will jump ship to United, JetBlue, FedEx, Spirit, UPS, Frontier, etc. and at that point Delta scope doesn't do squat for us.
Asking us to give up a major airline job offer and risk losing our jobs completely is a pretty big ask. Have Delta pilots/DALPA done anything that big for us? I'd say no, but if you think the answer is yes feel free to make that argument.
Asking us to lay down our jobs for you when you won't spend so much as an ounce of negotiating capital to support our goals is the height of the infamous Delta arrogance.
05-26-2021 | 07:27 AM
#305
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2021
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
Question to mainline pilots hanging out on this thread: What has DALPA given up on behalf of Endeavor pilots over the last 7 or so years?
Allow me to explain what I mean:
I get your scope argument, I really do. And I support your goal of protecting scope. That said, saying no to this deal would be an insanely risky move for us with very little benefit.
If we say no to this deal, Delta will almost certainly cancel our "guaranteed" interview program, and likely take flying away from us or even shut down Endeavor completely. We'll be left at a shrinking airline without any secure path to Delta. In that situation I think most of us will jump ship to United, JetBlue, FedEx, Spirit, UPS, Frontier, etc. and at that point Delta scope doesn't do squat for us.
Asking us to give up a major airline job offer and risk losing our jobs completely is a pretty big ask. Have Delta pilots/DALPA done anything that big for us? I'd say no, but if you think the answer is yes feel free to make that argument.
Asking us to lay down our jobs for you when you won't spend so much as an ounce of negotiating capital to support our goals is the height of the infamous Delta arrogance.
Allow me to explain what I mean:
I get your scope argument, I really do. And I support your goal of protecting scope. That said, saying no to this deal would be an insanely risky move for us with very little benefit.
If we say no to this deal, Delta will almost certainly cancel our "guaranteed" interview program, and likely take flying away from us or even shut down Endeavor completely. We'll be left at a shrinking airline without any secure path to Delta. In that situation I think most of us will jump ship to United, JetBlue, FedEx, Spirit, UPS, Frontier, etc. and at that point Delta scope doesn't do squat for us.
Asking us to give up a major airline job offer and risk losing our jobs completely is a pretty big ask. Have Delta pilots/DALPA done anything that big for us? I'd say no, but if you think the answer is yes feel free to make that argument.
Asking us to lay down our jobs for you when you won't spend so much as an ounce of negotiating capital to support our goals is the height of the infamous Delta arrogance.
A Deltas pilot’s answer is “Whose Endeavor? You fly for American right?” They do not give a **** about us.
05-26-2021 | 07:31 AM
#306
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 313
Likes: 2
So you're banking on a flow that will continue the SCOPE violations at the carrier you want to/will end up at. If those airplanes went to mainline the whole regional scheme would erode. Yes, Delta gave up that SCOPE but they got it back when Compass was closed. For some reason 9E thinks that is their negotiating leverage. This won't end well for any of us, especially if you end up at Delta and have to start the fight all over again to defend SCOPE with the next generation. This is 3 generations now of the regional v mainline saga. You have allies at mainline in former regional pilots. And BTW there are no guarantees in life. The Compass flow and shut down should be a warning as to the rice paper this agreement is written on.
05-26-2021 | 07:43 AM
#307
Line Holder
Joined: May 2021
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
The 35 RJs are already parked. Get a life and stop trolling, go read your Book of Mormon or something
05-26-2021 | 07:44 AM
#308
Line Holder
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Back to the conversation. There have been no legitimate claims of why this should bypass a vote at endeavor and be unilaterally ratified by your mec. This is clearly a highly controversial issue that demands the clarity a vote would provide. Additionally, there have been no legitimate arguments of why endeavor should agree to giving up scope at the mainline job they want to be at. This is further proving the point that many are agreeing that a short term gain is worth a large long term loss.
Name a time in history when an airline folded (compass), then scope was recaptured by the pilots. I honestly cannot think of one. But here you are agreeing to a “flow” in order to sellout the very regionals you’re trying to escape. It’s mind boggling.
05-26-2021 | 07:46 AM
#309
Line Holder
Joined: May 2021
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
So you're banking on a flow that will continue the SCOPE violations at the carrier you want to/will end up at. If those airplanes went to mainline the whole regional scheme would erode. Yes, Delta gave up that SCOPE but they got it back when Compass was closed. For some reason 9E thinks that is their negotiating leverage. This won't end well for any of us, especially if you end up at Delta and have to start the fight all over again to defend SCOPE with the next generation. This is 3 generations now of the regional v mainline saga. You have allies at mainline in former regional pilots. And BTW there are no guarantees in life. The Compass sale, flow and shut down should be a warning as to the rice paper this agreement is written on.
05-26-2021 | 07:46 AM
#310
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2021
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
The adults are talking. Be quiet and go back to your room. You add nothing of substance to a serious topic that you obviously cannot comprehend.
Back to the conversation. There have been no legitimate claims of why this should bypass a vote at endeavor and be unilaterally ratified by your mec. This is clearly a highly controversial issue that demands the clarity a vote would provide. Additionally, there have been no legitimate arguments of why endeavor should agree to giving up scope at the mainline job they want to be at. This is further proving the point that many are agreeing that a short term gain is worth a large long term loss.
Name a time in history when an airline folded (compass), then scope was recaptured by the pilots. I honestly cannot think of one. But here you are agreeing to a “flow” in order to sellout the very regionals you’re trying to escape. It’s mind boggling.
Back to the conversation. There have been no legitimate claims of why this should bypass a vote at endeavor and be unilaterally ratified by your mec. This is clearly a highly controversial issue that demands the clarity a vote would provide. Additionally, there have been no legitimate arguments of why endeavor should agree to giving up scope at the mainline job they want to be at. This is further proving the point that many are agreeing that a short term gain is worth a large long term loss.
Name a time in history when an airline folded (compass), then scope was recaptured by the pilots. I honestly cannot think of one. But here you are agreeing to a “flow” in order to sellout the very regionals you’re trying to escape. It’s mind boggling.
Answer the question. What the **** has DALPA done for 9E pilots?
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