Any "Latest & Greatest" about Endeavor?
11-11-2016, 06:20 PM
#8121
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 480
Originally Posted by Farmlover
All I said was that the bonus is equal and if they do roll it into pay rates that it better be and should be equal. Giving more to the super sr will not encourage them to move on. Which we all need them to do.
Lets get them pay back to jcba rates and in the meantime we'll all move on. Even if delta said no to you on the ssp united won't. Fedex wont. Southwest wont. Even if you dont like fedex or soemthing theres time to move again if you want to. The whole world's out there, and endeavor is the past.
11-11-2016, 07:03 PM
#8122
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: FIRE ALPA
Posts: 3,082
Originally Posted by JesuitValen
This is where I duck, but those pilots with the double no at somepoint will get hired somewhere (spirit, jetblue, walmartAir, whatever) so delta is saying that in a complete refresh of their seniority list they can't trust a guy with 20yrs experience as a lifelong fo or a junior captain that would be "hired" years from now? That's a fairly stupid statement.
It's unpopular to say in a Delta jumpseat, but every pilot working here or any regional today will have an opportunity to interview and be hired somewhere else. Eh. That's just the math.
Furthermore, it's likely 5 or 8 years from now Delta may call you up and see if United is a good fit, "maybe ya'oughta come down ta Atlanta and see what we're 'bout."
It's unpopular to say in a Delta jumpseat, but every pilot working here or any regional today will have an opportunity to interview and be hired somewhere else. Eh. That's just the math.
Furthermore, it's likely 5 or 8 years from now Delta may call you up and see if United is a good fit, "maybe ya'oughta come down ta Atlanta and see what we're 'bout."
After the way they treated a lot of the SSP captains, "yea you know you might be better off going to United" I'm betting those guys with 5 years seniority in at United will probably have some colorful 4 letter metaphors for the poor sap that has to make those phone calls.
11-11-2016, 07:06 PM
#8123
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: FIRE ALPA
Posts: 3,082
Originally Posted by Farmlover
The middle group were within a few classes of upgrade. After the merger they lost that chance and even further lost that chance with bankruptcy.
So yes they lost as well,so saying that only the sr guys are the only ones that haven't been made whole is entirely wrong!
So yes they lost as well,so saying that only the sr guys are the only ones that haven't been made whole is entirely wrong!
11-11-2016, 08:02 PM
#8124
Property of Scheduling
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Bus driver
Posts: 2,527
Originally Posted by JesuitValen
We need them to? Farmlover, WE will move on. Pray to God they stay there while we goto mainline. We will have their qol and 2x their pay. Endeavor aint gonne be around forever, they were here beforeus and theyll be here after us. The company went as hard as they could on the senior guys and as avroman said theyre not going anywhere.
Lets get them pay back to jcba rates and in the meantime we'll all move on. Even if delta said no to you on the ssp united won't. Fedex wont. Southwest wont. Even if you dont like fedex or soemthing theres time to move again if you want to. The whole world's out there, and endeavor is the past.
Lets get them pay back to jcba rates and in the meantime we'll all move on. Even if delta said no to you on the ssp united won't. Fedex wont. Southwest wont. Even if you dont like fedex or soemthing theres time to move again if you want to. The whole world's out there, and endeavor is the past.
Now, reality of the situation; there are many new hires here since the BK contract/concessions. I honestly don't remember when the bonus showed up, but I want to say that party started for Q1 2015. Might be wrong there, but it's not a tangible point to the statement. Everyone here can talk about what "was" back in the day. New hires can go back 2 weeks for $7k in bonus, others can walk back 6 months to LOA 71 for $3k, others can walk back to $23k just being here. Those are positives, and welcome for all, regardless of understanding. Some can go farther back to 2011 when the JCBA was signed for industry leading pay, some can walk back into separate groups of super affordable insurance, quick upgrade, highest retirement savings, highest top end pay, best QOL, best premium pay.. you get the point. Everyone can find good times and bad, but it's an individual perspective. The records of memory for those on this board will span longer than the lifetime of many new hires. It's a series of waves. I don't surf, but have seen the low and high tides. Right now, we are all "up" on the board.
We are in a time, currently, where new hires are the commodity for a supply/demand equation with a defined floor (experience to "be" new hires). Movement is not only happening, but also contractually required. Being Veteran's day, and thank all of you for service in this capacity, the analogy works- the bonus was a stop loss. Current day Endeavor had a mass exodus of FO's and some CA's to other carriers due to the "reality" of the industry and our airline. Planes were being parked but pilots were leaving quicker than planes were leaving. Being that DL owned us, yet wanted us (true based on actions), bonuses were offered to retain pilots, yet we were downgrading CA's who were prime candidates for the "street CA" levels of other carriers. DL decided it was better to pay to retain pilots and keep those who would be the first wave of upgrades at CA pay (LOA 50). I have said my thoughts on this on the company (yet not associated) forum.
Now here we are. Every pilot on property is given $23K just to be on property (and classified "active"... contractual language/stipulations), and now DL wants the bonus moved to rates. Why? Well a current new hire will make $30k in bonuses, and roughly $30k in actual hourly pay. Problem? For many, no, but for some its huge. Mortgage? Car loan? "Bonuses don't count for income". The other issue is taxes. It's taxed at 25%, plus state, ALPA, etc as a normal check and royally jacks up a w-4. Go back a couple of hundred pages and it's spelled out. Thorough IRS Regs were sighted. Yet some won't search and say that I'm stupid on the matter. Fun game.
So, going forward, what's in play? Well, retention bonus into rates. What does this achieve? Well, you don't wait 4 months for the money. That's how most will see it, just like a new TA has everyone look at section 3 of a Contract. Next, your w-4 stays "aligned" through the year for the average guy. Furthermore, you get 401k match on all earnings without the bonus as a separate entity. Last, it's guaranteed, for all the work and premium that you do, and also part of verified earnings for your house/car loans.
23k/yr must equal 900 credit hours (guarantee of 75X12), which is $25.56 an hour across the board. Regardless of junior or senior, that's the math. If senior guys are made whole (full disclosure I'm a 10 year guy), the difference senior would have to take care of 6% a year lost in 401k match AND payrates above a 12 year scale beating previous JCBA rates up much higher in longevity. Don't see that happening, but overall rates for CA's will be higher. If you compare JCBA rates, it would be $45+ an hour over 10 years to be made "whole" without backpay.
Gone in April to the mothership, just putting the history and facts out there.
11-11-2016, 09:35 PM
#8125
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: CaptFo
Posts: 997
Originally Posted by higney85
Wow. I'll start with "cheers"; as based on previous grammar and this post you are either beating the keyboard into submission or are a bit loose with the keys.
Now, reality of the situation; there are many new hires here since the BK contract/concessions. I honestly don't remember when the bonus showed up, but I want to say that party started for Q1 2015. Might be wrong there, but it's not a tangible point to the statement. Everyone here can talk about what "was" back in the day. New hires can go back 2 weeks for $7k in bonus, others can walk back 6 months to LOA 71 for $3k, others can walk back to $23k just being here. Those are positives, and welcome for all, regardless of understanding. Some can go farther back to 2011 when the JCBA was signed for industry leading pay, some can walk back into separate groups of super affordable insurance, quick upgrade, highest retirement savings, highest top end pay, best QOL, best premium pay.. you get the point. Everyone can find good times and bad, but it's an individual perspective. The records of memory for those on this board will span longer than the lifetime of many new hires. It's a series of waves. I don't surf, but have seen the low and high tides. Right now, we are all "up" on the board.
We are in a time, currently, where new hires are the commodity for a supply/demand equation with a defined floor (experience to "be" new hires). Movement is not only happening, but also contractually required. Being Veteran's day, and thank all of you for service in this capacity, the analogy works- the bonus was a stop loss. Current day Endeavor had a mass exodus of FO's and some CA's to other carriers due to the "reality" of the industry and our airline. Planes were being parked but pilots were leaving quicker than planes were leaving. Being that DL owned us, yet wanted us (true based on actions), bonuses were offered to retain pilots, yet we were downgrading CA's who were prime candidates for the "street CA" levels of other carriers. DL decided it was better to pay to retain pilots and keep those who would be the first wave of upgrades at CA pay (LOA 50). I have said my thoughts on this on the company (yet not associated) forum.
Now here we are. Every pilot on property is given $23K just to be on property (and classified "active"... contractual language/stipulations), and now DL wants the bonus moved to rates. Why? Well a current new hire will make $30k in bonuses, and roughly $30k in actual hourly pay. Problem? For many, no, but for some its huge. Mortgage? Car loan? "Bonuses don't count for income". The other issue is taxes. It's taxed at 25%, plus state, ALPA, etc as a normal check and royally jacks up a w-4. Go back a couple of hundred pages and it's spelled out. Thorough IRS Regs were sighted. Yet some won't search and say that I'm stupid on the matter. Fun game.
So, going forward, what's in play? Well, retention bonus into rates. What does this achieve? Well, you don't wait 4 months for the money. That's how most will see it, just like a new TA has everyone look at section 3 of a Contract. Next, your w-4 stays "aligned" through the year for the average guy. Furthermore, you get 401k match on all earnings without the bonus as a separate entity. Last, it's guaranteed, for all the work and premium that you do, and also part of verified earnings for your house/car loans.
23k/yr must equal 900 credit hours (guarantee of 75X12), which is $25.56 an hour across the board. Regardless of junior or senior, that's the math. If senior guys are made whole (full disclosure I'm a 10 year guy), the difference senior would have to take care of 6% a year lost in 401k match AND payrates above a 12 year scale beating previous JCBA rates up much higher in longevity. Don't see that happening, but overall rates for CA's will be higher. If you compare JCBA rates, it would be $45+ an hour over 10 years to be made "whole" without backpay.
Gone in April to the mothership, just putting the history and facts out there.
Now, reality of the situation; there are many new hires here since the BK contract/concessions. I honestly don't remember when the bonus showed up, but I want to say that party started for Q1 2015. Might be wrong there, but it's not a tangible point to the statement. Everyone here can talk about what "was" back in the day. New hires can go back 2 weeks for $7k in bonus, others can walk back 6 months to LOA 71 for $3k, others can walk back to $23k just being here. Those are positives, and welcome for all, regardless of understanding. Some can go farther back to 2011 when the JCBA was signed for industry leading pay, some can walk back into separate groups of super affordable insurance, quick upgrade, highest retirement savings, highest top end pay, best QOL, best premium pay.. you get the point. Everyone can find good times and bad, but it's an individual perspective. The records of memory for those on this board will span longer than the lifetime of many new hires. It's a series of waves. I don't surf, but have seen the low and high tides. Right now, we are all "up" on the board.
We are in a time, currently, where new hires are the commodity for a supply/demand equation with a defined floor (experience to "be" new hires). Movement is not only happening, but also contractually required. Being Veteran's day, and thank all of you for service in this capacity, the analogy works- the bonus was a stop loss. Current day Endeavor had a mass exodus of FO's and some CA's to other carriers due to the "reality" of the industry and our airline. Planes were being parked but pilots were leaving quicker than planes were leaving. Being that DL owned us, yet wanted us (true based on actions), bonuses were offered to retain pilots, yet we were downgrading CA's who were prime candidates for the "street CA" levels of other carriers. DL decided it was better to pay to retain pilots and keep those who would be the first wave of upgrades at CA pay (LOA 50). I have said my thoughts on this on the company (yet not associated) forum.
Now here we are. Every pilot on property is given $23K just to be on property (and classified "active"... contractual language/stipulations), and now DL wants the bonus moved to rates. Why? Well a current new hire will make $30k in bonuses, and roughly $30k in actual hourly pay. Problem? For many, no, but for some its huge. Mortgage? Car loan? "Bonuses don't count for income". The other issue is taxes. It's taxed at 25%, plus state, ALPA, etc as a normal check and royally jacks up a w-4. Go back a couple of hundred pages and it's spelled out. Thorough IRS Regs were sighted. Yet some won't search and say that I'm stupid on the matter. Fun game.
So, going forward, what's in play? Well, retention bonus into rates. What does this achieve? Well, you don't wait 4 months for the money. That's how most will see it, just like a new TA has everyone look at section 3 of a Contract. Next, your w-4 stays "aligned" through the year for the average guy. Furthermore, you get 401k match on all earnings without the bonus as a separate entity. Last, it's guaranteed, for all the work and premium that you do, and also part of verified earnings for your house/car loans.
23k/yr must equal 900 credit hours (guarantee of 75X12), which is $25.56 an hour across the board. Regardless of junior or senior, that's the math. If senior guys are made whole (full disclosure I'm a 10 year guy), the difference senior would have to take care of 6% a year lost in 401k match AND payrates above a 12 year scale beating previous JCBA rates up much higher in longevity. Don't see that happening, but overall rates for CA's will be higher. If you compare JCBA rates, it would be $45+ an hour over 10 years to be made "whole" without backpay.
Gone in April to the mothership, just putting the history and facts out there.
11-12-2016, 06:12 AM
#8127
spin 2
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: the big one
Posts: 437
Originally Posted by seminolepilot
Just curious how much are the new 900 captains flying on reserve?
11-12-2016, 06:31 AM
#8128
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 325
Originally Posted by stillcantfly
Per deltas new TA that I'm holding in my hand FO pay is $112.99 and Capt pay is $165.46 and that's year one for both....... also includes the 175/190/900
11-12-2016, 07:10 AM
#8129
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: CaptFo
Posts: 997
Originally Posted by stillcantfly
Per deltas new TA that I'm holding in my hand FO pay is $112.99 and Capt pay is $165.46 and that's year one for both....... also includes the 175/190/900
11-12-2016, 07:20 AM
#8130
spin 2
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: the big one
Posts: 437
Originally Posted by Yumyum
It's pretty bad when a one year FO at Delta can make more than a 20 year captain at the regionals (same bird). Disgraceful....we need to all move on, or the entire regional industry needs to go away.
CA top out for the 900 on 1/1/2019 is $182.55
FO top out for the 900 on 1/1/2019 is $124.66
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