The middle group were within a few classes of upgrade. After the merger they lost that chance and even further lost that chance with bankruptcy.
So yes they lost as well,so saying that only the sr guys are the only ones that haven't been made whole is entirely wrong!

 

So your argument is that everyone (including pilots who have made no bsnkruptcy sacrifices) should get an equal pay raise because the "middle group of guys" (how many meet your arbitrary criteria btw, and of those guys how many are here?) didn't get to upgrade because of a bankruptcy?

I can only argue making whole, I cant contrive of every scenerio from a made up criteria. We should talk about those proud and lucky colgan guys who didnt have a damn airplane to their name but suddenly weren't a captain for 14-04 and still ***** because they felt like they should have been treated like a captain and gone with other captains on the ssp. They lost a ton of delta money and seniority. Do our senior guys need to pay for that too?

The company went through bankruptcy. The pilots took concessions and lost a ton of airplanes. Those concessions were concrete, senior guys took the biggest hit. They arent making jcba rates, but everyone else is making jcba or better rates with the retention. Its been years, we arent even saying lets try to get the lost money back since bk. There is a proposal saying lets make these guys paid at jcba rates going forward. Seems reasonable.

 

All I said was that the bonus is equal and if they do roll it into pay rates that it better be and should be equal. Giving more to the super sr will not encourage them to move on. Which we all need them to do.

 

We need them to? Farmlover, WE will move on. Pray to God they stay there while we goto mainline. We will have their qol and 2x their pay. Endeavor aint gonne be around forever, they were here beforeus and theyll be here after us. The company went as hard as they could on the senior guys and as avroman said theyre not going anywhere.

Lets get them pay back to jcba rates and in the meantime we'll all move on. Even if delta said no to you on the ssp united won't. Fedex wont. Southwest wont. Even if you dont like fedex or soemthing theres time to move again if you want to. The whole world's out there, and endeavor is the past.

 

After the way they treated a lot of the SSP captains, "yea you know you might be better off going to United" I'm betting those guys with 5 years seniority in at United will probably have some colorful 4 letter metaphors for the poor sap that has to make those phone calls.

 

Or were promptly downgraded (pre pay protection LOA fiasco) I was out an additional year's wages thanks to the obsurdity of the downgrading without regards to the Bloch award, yet had to follow it to re upgrade and for the purpose of LOA 50

 

Wow. I'll start with "cheers"; as based on previous grammar and this post you are either beating the keyboard into submission or are a bit loose with the keys.

Now, reality of the situation; there are many new hires here since the BK contract/concessions. I honestly don't remember when the bonus showed up, but I want to say that party started for Q1 2015. Might be wrong there, but it's not a tangible point to the statement. Everyone here can talk about what "was" back in the day. New hires can go back 2 weeks for $7k in bonus, others can walk back 6 months to LOA 71 for $3k, others can walk back to $23k just being here. Those are positives, and welcome for all, regardless of understanding. Some can go farther back to 2011 when the JCBA was signed for industry leading pay, some can walk back into separate groups of super affordable insurance, quick upgrade, highest retirement savings, highest top end pay, best QOL, best premium pay.. you get the point. Everyone can find good times and bad, but it's an individual perspective. The records of memory for those on this board will span longer than the lifetime of many new hires. It's a series of waves. I don't surf, but have seen the low and high tides. Right now, we are all "up" on the board.

We are in a time, currently, where new hires are the commodity for a supply/demand equation with a defined floor (experience to "be" new hires). Movement is not only happening, but also contractually required. Being Veteran's day, and thank all of you for service in this capacity, the analogy works- the bonus was a stop loss. Current day Endeavor had a mass exodus of FO's and some CA's to other carriers due to the "reality" of the industry and our airline. Planes were being parked but pilots were leaving quicker than planes were leaving. Being that DL owned us, yet wanted us (true based on actions), bonuses were offered to retain pilots, yet we were downgrading CA's who were prime candidates for the "street CA" levels of other carriers. DL decided it was better to pay to retain pilots and keep those who would be the first wave of upgrades at CA pay (LOA 50). I have said my thoughts on this on the company (yet not associated) forum.

Now here we are. Every pilot on property is given $23K just to be on property (and classified "active"... contractual language/stipulations), and now DL wants the bonus moved to rates. Why? Well a current new hire will make $30k in bonuses, and roughly $30k in actual hourly pay. Problem? For many, no, but for some its huge. Mortgage? Car loan? "Bonuses don't count for income". The other issue is taxes. It's taxed at 25%, plus state, ALPA, etc as a normal check and royally jacks up a w-4. Go back a couple of hundred pages and it's spelled out. Thorough IRS Regs were sighted. Yet some won't search and say that I'm stupid on the matter. Fun game.

So, going forward, what's in play? Well, retention bonus into rates. What does this achieve? Well, you don't wait 4 months for the money. That's how most will see it, just like a new TA has everyone look at section 3 of a Contract. Next, your w-4 stays "aligned" through the year for the average guy. Furthermore, you get 401k match on all earnings without the bonus as a separate entity. Last, it's guaranteed, for all the work and premium that you do, and also part of verified earnings for your house/car loans.

23k/yr must equal 900 credit hours (guarantee of 75X12), which is $25.56 an hour across the board. Regardless of junior or senior, that's the math. If senior guys are made whole (full disclosure I'm a 10 year guy), the difference senior would have to take care of 6% a year lost in 401k match AND payrates above a 12 year scale beating previous JCBA rates up much higher in longevity. Don't see that happening, but overall rates for CA's will be higher. If you compare JCBA rates, it would be $45+ an hour over 10 years to be made "whole" without backpay.

Gone in April to the mothership, just putting the history and facts out there.

 

Or just use Delta's new RJ900 pay rates. B scale or something. Again...the old regional mentality regarding pay and QOL needs to be put away forever. Major pilot shortage approaching the regionals.

 

Just curious how much are the new 900 captains flying on reserve?

 

Per deltas new TA that I'm holding in my hand FO pay is $112.99 and Capt pay is $165.46 and that's year one for both....... also includes the 175/190/900