Isn't it clear? In exchange for 3-4 months taken off of their flow through time, and an additional 3-4 months of captain pay while still flying as a first officer and/or in training, they will have to upgrade to the captain position, something that many protected pilots waited 8 to 10 years for while the industry stagnated. On top of that, they will have direct entry captains below them on the reserve list when they upgrade so they'll never have the opportunity to be the bottom guy as a reserve captain. Absolutely barbaric!

Third year captain pay for me is $69.68 for the pay band of the small RJ, and I’m an E75 captain. The pay band is real, yet not represented accurately on APC. Fairly misleading.


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any idea when the LOAs will be added to the contract for us to read?

Wow.........

They’re posted on the ALPA site

Anybody get more on this? Is it the next vacancy or standing vacancy? How are the DECs from the most recent class being paid? Asking for a friend that hit the craps table pretty hard when the LOA came out.

Yeah, what company did these Hillary Voters and Bernie Bro's think they were getting hired in to!?!? It's Sooooooo unfair to think that an airline would actually require you to work for your pay and benefits; require you to eventually upgrade and change bases. I mean geez... Nobody read the actual job requirements and expectations to these guys when they applied and interviewed, so how could you expect them to know what to expect???
I mean, don't you all understand; Envoy is in business to employ ME, and keep ME at home making ME money, dodging actual work. Why would they be in business to actually provide a service to a customer, and make a profit... This is 2018, folks! Wake up! A Revolution Is Coming; Not For Sale! Enough Is Enough! Feel the Bern!

OK, enough joking, sarcasm, and trolling coddled new hires. I totally get it, (and I'm speaking to the FO's who are up in arms over this), You THOUGHT you were hired into a company set on a certain track, and would have the option to upgrade when and where you wanted to. Then the company's past mistakes caught up with them (running off over 1K pilots between 2013 - 2015), and it threw your plans off track. Learning to be a safe Captain in 1 or 2 years, and 1000 flight hours at this company IS a tough order to fill, especially with the burden that is put on CA's shoulders. Those before you had a lot more time (desired, or not) to prepare. You're not looking forward to commuting to reserve in LGA for an indefinite amount of time. You feel like you were offered a golden ticket when you were hired, then handed a turd. The old bait and switch. I get it.

BUT, Please don't think that you're the first one this has happened to. And you won't be the last. I'm not saying that it's right, or fair. But that is the unfortunate nature of this business. You knew (or should have) when you signed on, and decided this as a career path. Do we have short sighted managers that didn't plan ahead, and now the pilot group is set up to fix their mistakes? Maybe... I don't know... But Envoy does not set their plans decades ahead. Some times it's day by day. This is because AA does not set a large forecast for our future. Industry dynamics change daily. Envoy was largely shrunk; down from 3300 pilots to about 1800 pilots, and 7 bases down to 2 bases, as US Air management decided Eagle was too large and that outsourcing was the way to go. Then the FFD carriers couldn't fill the orders. Love him or hate him, Pedro decided to show that we could be as strong and reliable as we once were, and we were able to recapture a lot of that lost flying, and reopened 3 of the closed bases, spurring massive growth. That show of reliability and strength was placed on the shoulders of the pilots (PP's) who stayed and toughed it out during draconian pay cuts and horrible QOL for half a decade. The sacrifices the PP's made forced the company to offer these huge sign on bonuses and retention bonuses (which PP's get none of), hotels in base, fast upgrades, and more bases to choose from. That's why you're here. You're welcome...

I enjoy flying with you all. I know most aren't even millennials, as joked about. Heck, half of ya'll are older than me, and I'm in my 40's! Many of you have had successful previous careers, and are on your bucket list job, (except some of you learned your bucket has holes in it). I enjoy hearing about your past successes in life, and I learn from your experiences. Many of you also are retired military vets. As a vet myself, I enjoy the camaraderie when we fly together. I even served under some of you, in a previous life.
Surely you don't want to hear about our (PP's) walk barefoot uphill in the snow both ways to the terminal, paying for our own commutes, no hotels in base, $25K / yr FO pay, with no bonuses, no sign on or retention bonuses, No year 3 FO pay on day 1, no flow, forced to displace as 5 bases closes, 2 years of reserve, and 7 year upgrade. But please recognize and respect where we're coming from.

PP's flowing an extra 4 a month, and 18 additional flows throughout an unspecified amount of time, DOES benefit the whole pilot group. Yes, some more than others, but it does benefit everyone. 3 months of unlimited hotels and A passes doesn't make a forced upgrade to LGA whole, but it's a start. If this doesn't fix things, then Envoy will have to come back to the table, again, to offer more. But you don't get there by getting everything you want straight out of the gate. You don't win the war on the first day of battle, but through many small victories. There's a few small sacrifices and losses, but the outcome is looking better throughout this ever changing battlefield.

I don't get the thinking here.

People stomp the brakes and stay home instead of flying their butts off to get to NCE faster (100% legal), this gets thrown into a negotiation where a sweet 3 mo TDY deal AND faster flow for PPs pops out, then a few PPs go on a rampage cursing millenials?

We all know there's still blood in this rock, look at what Endeavor pilots are getting. Why don't we all work together and try to get it?

Yes! I agree with you! Let's have 2 separate unions. One for the PP's and those who actually understand what's expected of them at work, we'll call it ALPA. And the other for the ones that are mad that they have to pay taxes on their golden ticket; we'll call it BBU (Bernie-Bro's United).

-ALPA: The old codgers that sacrificed pay and vacation, saw a shrinkage loss of 1500 pilots and 5 bases, 2 years reserve and 7 year upgrade, displaced more than once as 5 bases closed, and parked fleets.
These will be the guys and gals who stuck around and fought for their airline and pilot group during all of this and eventually forced in (AND GET TO KEEP) sign-on bonuses, and retention bonuses (which the PP get none of) for you today, hotels in base, free commute (used to have to pay the seat tax on D2's), improved commuter policy, improved (though not perfect) flow-through, and almost instant upgrade. The pilots in this group keep all of the current contract benefits, including the benefits in this latest LOA. The good things that you enjoy today were bought and paid for by these folks. That's why you're here... You're welcome.

-BBU: The 30 or so FO's that got hired in the last 2 years that want their pay and benefits but are hiding out on reserve so they don't have to fly and upgrade to CA in LGA.
Since they love reserve so much, they get to stay on reserve for 2 years, at the wonderful 2012 post BK FO pay scales, with no risk of holding a pesky a line with defined schedule.
No more bonuses to have to pay those nasty taxes on.
No more having to deal with company paid in-base hotels like 4-points, or Hilton. Now you can book and pay for the choice hotel of your choosing. Such fine accommodations that will fit your budget, like the Motel 6, Super 8, Quality Inn, ect...
You get to pay back sign on bonuses, as well as retroactively pay back the difference of year 1 and the year 3 FO pay that you got from day 1, that way you are no longer beholden to the company, and are a free Ze!
You pay the seat tax for all of your D2's on AA branded flights (excluding jumpseat). This will assure you some familiarity in the cockpit from the jumpseat, so that you don't have pay the seat tax in the back. You'll need this, so that you don't forget what line pilots do at work, while you live the good life, chilling in your crashpad on reserve.
You will be locked in as an FO (capped pay at 4 year scale) for at least 7 years, so you don't have to be unfairly forced into that horrible wretched CA seat and assume those pesky professional pilot responsibilities.
Best part is, you get to keep the fabulous OLD flow agreement, at 30% of AA new hires / month, metered to 15 / month, whichever is less.
Oh, and you get 2 whole shiny bases, of AA's choosing.

Great idea man! Now get out there and get em' signed up!

I don't get it either, brother... And I agree, wish we could get what Endeavor is getting, but each small improvement is a step in the right direction. If we went into the negotiating room and slammed an "Endeavor or Better" demand on the table, the company would laugh us out of the room. Small victories at a time is what wins the battle. If this doesn't work, then they may come back with a better offer, one piece at a time.

As far as PP's bashing millenials, I think some of the 30 or so FO's that have been bidding reserve to avoid NCE, went ape-sh!t over the deal, and PP's got into with them over it. As a PP, I like the deal. Specifically because the company and union were willing to come together and come up with a remedy to the company's problem with FO's avoiding upgrade, and settle the flow grievance. Is it perfect, No. But it's a step in the right direction.

-The company was going to solve their FO upgrading problem with, or without our cooperation. I'm glad they chose to negotiate with us this time. If you remember, the whole reason we have those ridiculous pre-assigned RAPS, is because when 117 took effect, less than a dozen people on reserve got tired of early assignments, so they figured out a way to cheat the system. They would proffer a trip, then not confirm, and when scheduling would call then at Midnight-01 (interrupting sleep), they had to be released into 10 hours rest, effectively assuring that they didn't have to go on duty until 1001. It didn't even take 2 months for the company to go ballistic over this and screw the whole airline reserve system into pre-assigned RAPS to remedy the scheme that less than half a dozen people were pulling. So what options did we have here? Either negotiate a way to get the FO's flying, where the whole pilot group benefits, or screw EVERYONE on reserve with another "Reserve Time Balancing" Scheme.
If you don't know what that is, "RTB" is where they assign reserve flying, out of seniority order, to ensure that everyone flies at least at minimum amount of hours a month. For those who wanted to fly, you would no longer be used once you hit 35 hours for the month, and flying would be given to someone that hasn't yet flown that many hours yet.
So either way, the company was going to "get these guys". So at least they worked out a way to make it a bit more bearable. But none-the-less, it would have been better to remedy the source of 'WHY' people didn't want to upgrade: the QOL.

-As for the increased upgrade, who knows how long a grievance would have taken to play out, and HOW it would have played out. Maybe we could have gotten a better deal, such as retroactive loss of pay / time at AA. But given the trend of past grievance results, I doubt we would have come out much better than we did in this settlement.

For those who are upset over this, and mad at the PP's, Yes, as a PP, I am happy with the deal. But we did not vote on this, nor have any input into it. It was a ALPA and Company closed door negotiation, and I think they did a decent job here. Could it have been better? Maybe, maybe not...

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