New Envoy Information
01-29-2016, 11:36 AM
#961
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 674
Originally Posted by FlameNSky
Contractually legal or not, they are blowing their only recruitment tool over the difference of 5 pilots. Pretty stupid move.
01-29-2016, 11:36 AM
#962
New Hire
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 7
Originally Posted by Skyvector
Also, consider the following: The metered to 30 clause is ONLY for the 824 group. The Protected Pilot group gets 50% flow (after the 40th E175) with no metered to 30 clause. That means that once the PP group starts to flow, and AA hires 70 like they are doing now we will have to flow 35. They won't be able to meter down to 30. The 824 are due to finish flowing in early 2017 and the 40th E175 should be on property by then if not sooner. So yes, expect 360+ flows for 2017 and beyond. The recalls will all have come back by this summer as well so there will be no more hiring gaps either.
01-29-2016, 11:39 AM
#963
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 787
Originally Posted by ComptonOtterPop
This is wrong. After the 824, they are only obligated to send 25 a month instead of 30. It gets worse, not better.
01-29-2016, 11:47 AM
#964
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 687
Originally Posted by ComptonOtterPop
This is wrong. After the 824, they are only obligated to send 25 a month instead of 30. It gets worse, not better.
They sure spout off that 50% number, as a recruiting tool and well here is their chance to follow through, and they don't. So I don't expect out 50%, 35%, and 25% respectively to be honored either. It is because our "surplus" is decreasing.
The protected pilot agreement mentions "surplus" many times in reference to an increase in the flow. So for Rick to use that term "surplus" and withhold is mind baffling.
01-29-2016, 11:50 AM
#965
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by FlameNSky
Contractually legal or not, they are blowing their only recruitment tool over the difference of 5 pilots. Pretty stupid move.
Violation of contract or not (which seems to be in dispute), it belies the promises they make are virtually certain to be broken.
01-29-2016, 11:52 AM
#966
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by Skyvector
Yes, this is correct. 50% no less than 25...I took a look at it again. The pilot group will be much smaller once we get to the PP group though.
It's all smoke and mirrors.
01-29-2016, 12:06 PM
#968
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 179
Originally Posted by Skyvector
This is why so many on eagle lounge are up in arms. Misunderstanding the contract. I don't blame you...this is a failure on the part of our association.
I'll try to explain as best I can:
We get 50% of each AA class metered to 30. Not 50% period. What does that mean in practice?
Example #1: AA hires 100 pilots in a month. Envoy gets 50% which is 50. If the company wants to meter they can do so down to 30 and no less.
Example #2: AA hires 50 pilots in a month. Envoy gets 50% which is 25. Since 25 is less than 30 the company couldn't meter even if they wanted to. All 25 would have to go.
So what's happening next month? AA is hiring 70, which gives Envoy up to 35 flows. BUT, per our contract the company can meter down to 30 and that is what they are doing. They don't have to have a good reason to do so, they can because our contract has that clause.
On the bright side, that clause means that the company has to send minimum of 30. They can't send only 5 and claim it's because of staffing issues. That would be much worse, wouldn't it? Can you imagine the fit people would be throwing if we only flowed 5 next month, 10 the month after that, then 5 again, and so on. At least that clause makes the company send no less than 30, which in a year with no hiring gaps due to recalls is 360/year.
Also, consider the following: The metered to 30 clause is ONLY for the 824 group. The Protected Pilot group gets 50% flow (after the 40th E175) with no metered to 30 clause. That means that once the PP group starts to flow, and AA hires 70 like they are doing now we will have to flow 35. They won't be able to meter down to 30. The 824 are due to finish flowing in early 2017 and the 40th E175 should be on property by then if not sooner. So yes, expect 360+ flows for 2017 and beyond. The recalls will all have come back by this summer as well so there will be no more hiring gaps either.
I'll try to explain as best I can:
We get 50% of each AA class metered to 30. Not 50% period. What does that mean in practice?
Example #1: AA hires 100 pilots in a month. Envoy gets 50% which is 50. If the company wants to meter they can do so down to 30 and no less.
Example #2: AA hires 50 pilots in a month. Envoy gets 50% which is 25. Since 25 is less than 30 the company couldn't meter even if they wanted to. All 25 would have to go.
So what's happening next month? AA is hiring 70, which gives Envoy up to 35 flows. BUT, per our contract the company can meter down to 30 and that is what they are doing. They don't have to have a good reason to do so, they can because our contract has that clause.
On the bright side, that clause means that the company has to send minimum of 30. They can't send only 5 and claim it's because of staffing issues. That would be much worse, wouldn't it? Can you imagine the fit people would be throwing if we only flowed 5 next month, 10 the month after that, then 5 again, and so on. At least that clause makes the company send no less than 30, which in a year with no hiring gaps due to recalls is 360/year.
Also, consider the following: The metered to 30 clause is ONLY for the 824 group. The Protected Pilot group gets 50% flow (after the 40th E175) with no metered to 30 clause. That means that once the PP group starts to flow, and AA hires 70 like they are doing now we will have to flow 35. They won't be able to meter down to 30. The 824 are due to finish flowing in early 2017 and the 40th E175 should be on property by then if not sooner. So yes, expect 360+ flows for 2017 and beyond. The recalls will all have come back by this summer as well so there will be no more hiring gaps either.
Like you, I want Envoy to succeed, but I refuse to cover for the company's violations of the contract.
Also, you are mistaken on the Protect Pilot flow. For Protected Pilots, before the 40th 175, it is 35% or metered to 25 pilots monthly. After the 40th 175, it increases to 50% or metered to 25 pilots monthly.
01-29-2016, 12:36 PM
#969
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Posts: 894
Originally Posted by fisherman
I The company cannot just arbitrarily meter to below 50% whenever they feel like it. The contract and arbitrator's award state "metering" below 50% is only allowed to prevent disruption to Envoy's operation. Additionally, future flow-throughs must accelerate to catch up to the 50% ratio. As evidenced by our part-time/zero time/below-guarantee lines, Envoy can clearly send the full 50% without disrupting the operation; therefore metering to less than 50% in February 2016 would be a violation of the CBA and the arbitrator's award.
.
.
We have enough excess staffing to choke a donkey. No legal reason for this.
01-29-2016, 12:47 PM
#970
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 416
Originally Posted by eaglefly
The earth has tipped over as I actually agree with FlameNSky. The withholding of a simple 5 pilots/month sends a 4th of July skyrocket airborne to majestically demonstrate to both potential and present Envoy pilots that nothing said or promised at any given time is valid and that those who are at Envoy can expect to be short-changed.
Violation of contract or not (which seems to be in dispute), it belies the promises they make are virtually certain to be broken.
Violation of contract or not (which seems to be in dispute), it belies the promises they make are virtually certain to be broken.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
