New Envoy Information
01-29-2016, 08:11 AM
#941
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 787
Originally Posted by ORDinary
That is a complete mischaracterization of what is happening. I don't know who you are, but I can't believe that a current Envoy pilot would make light of management's failure to completely honor the flow through.
We know that they treat the contract as optional whenever it suits them, but it appeared that they would honor the flow, since it represents their entire recruitment plan. I guess we were wrong. Potential new hires should probably take note. The flow to AA is a promise made by people with a history of bending the truth. Trust them at your own risk.
This is a sad day.
We know that they treat the contract as optional whenever it suits them, but it appeared that they would honor the flow, since it represents their entire recruitment plan. I guess we were wrong. Potential new hires should probably take note. The flow to AA is a promise made by people with a history of bending the truth. Trust them at your own risk.
This is a sad day.
Our contract states that we have to flow 50% of each AA new hire class per month metered to 30. This next month AA is bringing on 70 new hires. 50% of that would be 35 which allows the company to meter down to 30 if they wanted...and so they have. None of that is in violation of our contract. So what's your problem?
Second, flowing 30 per month is hardly a tragedy although you fellas over on eagle lounge would cry if you were handed a brick of gold. 30/month is still over 300 a year. Go ask the PSA boys to cry for you...they get 5 per month. Go ask the boys over at Republic, Commutair, TSA, Gojets, or anywhere else to cry for you. They get zero flows to anywhere.
Third, you fellas on eagle lounge are experts on crying, complaining, and generally beeyaching about EVERY-SINGLE-THING. But come up with solutions for once. First, explain how flowing 30 in a month that AA hires 70 is in violation of anything. It isn't. Second, explain how flowing 300+ per year is such a sad-sad day.
Finally, tell us how you folks on eagle lounge would handle the recalls at AA. American set May of 2016 as the deadline for all furloughed pilots to return. After that it's game over for all them. A couple of number crunchers at AA recently took a shot in the dark at how many recalls would be coming back by May. Then they estimated based on those numbers they would need 3 months of no new hires and no flows to get all those guys through training. Then those numbers were relayed to Ric and are constantly changing. Come May they could realize they will only actually need 2 months to get them trained, or one.
So what's your solution? American has limited resources just like any other company in the world. They only have so much sim time, so many classrooms, and so many instructors. And they only operate on the same 24 hour clock as the rest of us do. So instead of your usual eagle lounge crying, offer a solution. Keep in mind that telling the recalls to go pound sand is NOT a solution.
Go change your underwear and take a deep breath. Flowing 300 for the year is significantly more than anyone else can say and is more than this company has ever flowed before. That number will be larger after 2016 with no more recalls. If AA hires more than 60 can the company meter to 30? Yes, it's in the contract. Is 30 flows per month horrible? Not by a long shot...that's still a huge number.
Last edited by Skyvector; 01-29-2016 at 08:43 AM.
01-29-2016, 08:24 AM
#942
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 366
Originally Posted by Bob Loblaw
This is what I saw:
Shoutout to management and labor for bringing the 175 on the way they did [blood money].
Doug: More kudos for getting the 175.
Sam: Special thanks to Pedro and Dee temples for treating employees as humans and not numbers. Fleet plan? Envoy has awesome performance and low attrition - we have more warm bodies and actually recruiting. So why dont we get airplanes?
KH: We have 40 175s arriving and Envoy is positioned to get more airplanes. Envoy has reliability "knocked out of hte park" and costs so the airplane should be arriving.
Sam: Previous management did everything they could to minimize the flow. Explains limit of 50%/30 meters. Given Envoy has excess staffing, the full flow should be going.
RI: More than 30 causes a disruption at the size of an airline like Envoy. Plan for 50% of AA hiring classes to be flow through COMBINED from Envoy, PDT and PSA. 30 a month is the plan
=======================
1) Why all the under guarantee lines, tons of reserves not flying, and ZERO TIME LINES if our staffing is so tight?
2) The envoy flow (as directed through arbitration) is for envoy pilots to occupy 50% of all new hire positions at AA (metering withstanding). NOT 50% including all other wholly owned airlines.
This management team is not to be trusted in the least! Contracts are barely even a suggestion of how things should be run.
Shoutout to management and labor for bringing the 175 on the way they did [blood money].
Doug: More kudos for getting the 175.
Sam: Special thanks to Pedro and Dee temples for treating employees as humans and not numbers. Fleet plan? Envoy has awesome performance and low attrition - we have more warm bodies and actually recruiting. So why dont we get airplanes?
KH: We have 40 175s arriving and Envoy is positioned to get more airplanes. Envoy has reliability "knocked out of hte park" and costs so the airplane should be arriving.
Sam: Previous management did everything they could to minimize the flow. Explains limit of 50%/30 meters. Given Envoy has excess staffing, the full flow should be going.
RI: More than 30 causes a disruption at the size of an airline like Envoy. Plan for 50% of AA hiring classes to be flow through COMBINED from Envoy, PDT and PSA. 30 a month is the plan
=======================
1) Why all the under guarantee lines, tons of reserves not flying, and ZERO TIME LINES if our staffing is so tight?
2) The envoy flow (as directed through arbitration) is for envoy pilots to occupy 50% of all new hire positions at AA (metering withstanding). NOT 50% including all other wholly owned airlines.
This management team is not to be trusted in the least! Contracts are barely even a suggestion of how things should be run.
01-29-2016, 08:37 AM
#943
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 416
Originally Posted by Skyvector
It's a sad day that an actual Ealge Lounger is now attempting to bring their cry fest on to this forum. Take off your bib off for two seconds and consider the following:
Our contract states that we have to flow 50% of each AA new hire class per month metered to 30. This next month AA is bringing on 70 new hires. 50% of that would be 35 which allows the company to meter down to 30 if they wanted...and so they have. None of that is in violation of our contract. So what's your problem?
Second, flowing 30 per month is hardly a tragedy although you fellas over on eagle lounge would cry if you were handed a brick of gold. 30/month is still over 300 a year. Go ask the PSA boys to cry for you...they get 5 per month. Go ask the boys over at Republic, Commutair, TSA, Gojets, or anywhere else to cry for you. They get zero flows to anywhere.
Third, you fellas on eagle lounge are experts on crying, complaining, and generally beeyaching about EVERY-SINGLE-THING. But come up with solutions for once. First, explain how flowing 30 in a month that AA hires 70 is in violation of anything. It isn't. Second, explain how flowing 300+ per year is such a sad-sad day.
Finally, tell us how you folks on eagle lounge would handle the recalls at AA. American set May of 2016 as the deadline for all furloughed pilots to return. After that it's game over for all them. A couple of number crunchers at AA recently took a shot in the dark at how many recalls would be coming back by May. Then they estimated based on those numbers they would need 3 months of no new hires and no flows to get all those guys through training. Then those numbers were relayed to Ric and are constantly changing. Come May they could realize they will only actually need 2 months to get them trained, or one.
So what's your solution? American has limited resources just like any other company in the world. They only have so much sim time, so many classrooms, and so many instructors. And they only operate on the same 24 hour clock as the rest of us do. So instead of your usual eagle lounge crying, offer a solution. Keep in mind that telling the recalls to go pound sand is NOT a solution.
Go change your underwear and take a deep breath. Flowing 300 for the year is significantly more than anyone else can say and is more than this company has ever flowed before. That number will be larger after 2016 with no more recalls. If AA hires more than 60 can the company meter to 30? Yes, it's in the contract. Is 30 flows per month horrible? Not by a long shot...that's still a huge number.
Our contract states that we have to flow 50% of each AA new hire class per month metered to 30. This next month AA is bringing on 70 new hires. 50% of that would be 35 which allows the company to meter down to 30 if they wanted...and so they have. None of that is in violation of our contract. So what's your problem?
Second, flowing 30 per month is hardly a tragedy although you fellas over on eagle lounge would cry if you were handed a brick of gold. 30/month is still over 300 a year. Go ask the PSA boys to cry for you...they get 5 per month. Go ask the boys over at Republic, Commutair, TSA, Gojets, or anywhere else to cry for you. They get zero flows to anywhere.
Third, you fellas on eagle lounge are experts on crying, complaining, and generally beeyaching about EVERY-SINGLE-THING. But come up with solutions for once. First, explain how flowing 30 in a month that AA hires 70 is in violation of anything. It isn't. Second, explain how flowing 300+ per year is such a sad-sad day.
Finally, tell us how you folks on eagle lounge would handle the recalls at AA. American set May of 2016 as the deadline for all furloughed pilots to return. After that it's game over for all them. A couple of number crunchers at AA recently took a shot in the dark at how many recalls would be coming back by May. Then they estimated based on those numbers they would need 3 months of no new hires and no flows to get all those guys through training. Then those numbers were relayed to Ric and are constantly changing. Come May they could realize they will only actually need 2 months to get them trained, or one.
So what's your solution? American has limited resources just like any other company in the world. They only have so much sim time, so many classrooms, and so many instructors. And they only operate on the same 24 hour clock as the rest of us do. So instead of your usual eagle lounge crying, offer a solution. Keep in mind that telling the recalls to go pound sand is NOT a solution.
Go change your underwear and take a deep breath. Flowing 300 for the year is significantly more than anyone else can say and is more than this company has ever flowed before. That number will be larger after 2016 with no more recalls. If AA hires more than 60 can the company meter to 30? Yes, it's in the contract. Is 30 flows per month horrible? Not by a long shot...that's still a huge number.
Here's an excerpt from the agreement;
b. The intent of this agreement is to provide 50% of the AA new hire training slots to 824 AE pilots in such a way that the AE operation is not disrupted.
01-29-2016, 08:55 AM
#944
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 610
@skyvector
I don't know much about the AE flow, but I think they would be upset if AA hired 70 a month instead of 60 for 6 months then ran a class of 50 for 6 months. AA would be hiring the same amount per year but sidestepping some of the flows.
I don't know much about the AE flow, but I think they would be upset if AA hired 70 a month instead of 60 for 6 months then ran a class of 50 for 6 months. AA would be hiring the same amount per year but sidestepping some of the flows.
01-29-2016, 09:01 AM
#945
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 687
Originally Posted by Skyvector
It's a sad day that an actual Ealge Lounger is now attempting to bring their cry fest on to this forum. Take off your bib for two seconds and consider the following:
Our contract states that we have to flow 50% of each AA new hire class per month metered to 30. This next month AA is bringing on 70 new hires. 50% of that would be 35 which allows the company to meter down to 30 if they wanted...and so they have. None of that is in violation of our contract. So what's your problem?
Second, flowing 30 per month is hardly a tragedy although you fellas over on eagle lounge would cry if you were handed a brick of gold. 30/month is still over 300 a year. Go ask the PSA boys to cry for you...they get 5 per month. Go ask the boys over at Republic, Commutair, TSA, Gojets, or anywhere else to cry for you. They get zero flows to anywhere.
Third, you fellas on eagle lounge are experts on crying, complaining, and generally beeyaching about EVERY-SINGLE-THING. But come up with solutions for once. First, explain how flowing 30 in a month that AA hires 70 is in violation of anything. It isn't. Second, explain how flowing 300+ per year is such a sad-sad day.
Finally, tell us how you folks on eagle lounge would handle the recalls at AA. American set May of 2016 as the deadline for all furloughed pilots to return. After that it's game over for all them. A couple of number crunchers at AA recently took a shot in the dark at how many recalls would be coming back by May. Then they estimated based on those numbers they would need 3 months of no new hires and no flows to get all those guys through training. Then those numbers were relayed to Ric and are constantly changing. Come May they could realize they will only actually need 2 months to get them trained, or one.
So what's your solution? American has limited resources just like any other company in the world. They only have so much sim time, so many classrooms, and so many instructors. And they only operate on the same 24 hour clock as the rest of us do. So instead of your usual eagle lounge crying, offer a solution. Keep in mind that telling the recalls to go pound sand is NOT a solution.
Go change your underwear and take a deep breath. Flowing 300 for the year is significantly more than anyone else can say and is more than this company has ever flowed before. That number will be larger after 2016 with no more recalls. If AA hires more than 60 can the company meter to 30? Yes, it's in the contract. Is 30 flows per month horrible? Not by a long shot...that's still a huge number.
Our contract states that we have to flow 50% of each AA new hire class per month metered to 30. This next month AA is bringing on 70 new hires. 50% of that would be 35 which allows the company to meter down to 30 if they wanted...and so they have. None of that is in violation of our contract. So what's your problem?
Second, flowing 30 per month is hardly a tragedy although you fellas over on eagle lounge would cry if you were handed a brick of gold. 30/month is still over 300 a year. Go ask the PSA boys to cry for you...they get 5 per month. Go ask the boys over at Republic, Commutair, TSA, Gojets, or anywhere else to cry for you. They get zero flows to anywhere.
Third, you fellas on eagle lounge are experts on crying, complaining, and generally beeyaching about EVERY-SINGLE-THING. But come up with solutions for once. First, explain how flowing 30 in a month that AA hires 70 is in violation of anything. It isn't. Second, explain how flowing 300+ per year is such a sad-sad day.
Finally, tell us how you folks on eagle lounge would handle the recalls at AA. American set May of 2016 as the deadline for all furloughed pilots to return. After that it's game over for all them. A couple of number crunchers at AA recently took a shot in the dark at how many recalls would be coming back by May. Then they estimated based on those numbers they would need 3 months of no new hires and no flows to get all those guys through training. Then those numbers were relayed to Ric and are constantly changing. Come May they could realize they will only actually need 2 months to get them trained, or one.
So what's your solution? American has limited resources just like any other company in the world. They only have so much sim time, so many classrooms, and so many instructors. And they only operate on the same 24 hour clock as the rest of us do. So instead of your usual eagle lounge crying, offer a solution. Keep in mind that telling the recalls to go pound sand is NOT a solution.
Go change your underwear and take a deep breath. Flowing 300 for the year is significantly more than anyone else can say and is more than this company has ever flowed before. That number will be larger after 2016 with no more recalls. If AA hires more than 60 can the company meter to 30? Yes, it's in the contract. Is 30 flows per month horrible? Not by a long shot...that's still a huge number.
01-29-2016, 09:05 AM
#946
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 416
Originally Posted by Waitingformins
@skyvector
I don't know much about the AE flow, but I think they would be upset if AA hired 70 a month instead of 60 for 6 months then ran a class of 50 for 6 months. AA would be hiring the same amount per year but sidestepping some of the flows.
I don't know much about the AE flow, but I think they would be upset if AA hired 70 a month instead of 60 for 6 months then ran a class of 50 for 6 months. AA would be hiring the same amount per year but sidestepping some of the flows.
For those coming here thinking they will flow in 5-6 years, all I can say is buyer beware. Yeah, you will probably flow at some point, but with their latest antics I would advise going elsewhere.
01-29-2016, 09:07 AM
#947
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by mr25cents
This was just addressed on the town hall meeting. MEC chairman asked (major paraphrasing here) why not flow more than 30 a month if we are overstaffed? Mgmt said that they are concerned about how much disruption flowing over 30 a month would cause. Another question was about Miami: with Cuba opening up and the 175 coming online way ahead of schedule, any chance of getting more Miami flying? The answer was that they wanna keep most of the flying in DFW and ORD, something about keeping reliability high, blah-blah-blah
Excuses are a dime-a-dozen and obviously as anticipated, "the world has changed" again. I'd plan on it to change frequently and probably most often, not for the better.
01-29-2016, 09:13 AM
#948
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 787
Originally Posted by moon
Dangerous thoughts, lets focus on honoring the contract. 5 per month over a year is 60 pilots. Putting #60 2 months behind schedule. then 4 months after 2 years . then 6 months after 3 years and so on. In an industry where seniority is everything it is something we cannot stand for. It is not whining, its something bargained for, that needs to be honored. I enjoy working for Envoy, or more like barely working for Envoy (seriously why are we metering?), but these contract provisions need to be fought for, or we set dangerous precedent.
01-29-2016, 09:23 AM
#949
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 416
Originally Posted by Skyvector
How is the contract being violated?
Tell me how the operation is being disrupted when there are zero time lines, pilots sitting at home on reserve for an entire month without being called, inefficient schedules, etc;
If management thinks that our operation will be disrupted in the current environment, then what type of environment do you envision where it won't be disrupted?
01-29-2016, 09:26 AM
#950
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 787
Originally Posted by Eaglepilot84
b. The intent of this agreement is to provide 50% of the AA new hire training slots to 824 AE pilots in such a way that the AE operation is not disrupted.
Tell me how the operation is being disrupted when there are zero time lines, pilots sitting at home on reserve for an entire month without being called, inefficient schedules, etc;
If management thinks that our operation will be disrupted in the current environment, then what type of environment do you envision where it won't be disrupted?
Tell me how the operation is being disrupted when there are zero time lines, pilots sitting at home on reserve for an entire month without being called, inefficient schedules, etc;
If management thinks that our operation will be disrupted in the current environment, then what type of environment do you envision where it won't be disrupted?
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