TrinityDawn

No, the 824 was an arbitration ruling as a result of our original flow agreement, Letter 3, being violated. So much for contractual flow not being violated, right? Then, the protected pilot flow was a result of an arbitration settlement from our aircraft being transferred off of our certificate. The only "contractual" flow starts after the PP group.

The company is literally violating the contract every day, and you tell us to trust you that they won't violate the flow when it suits them? That's just laughable. After the 824 is completed, all bets are off folks.

TrinityDawn

Unless of course, you're fired for FMLA abuse a month before you are scheduled to flow, as recently happened to one individual.

Or, you volunteer to be a union rep, and are also fired for FMLA abuse, and the company won't agree to an arbitration hearing date before your estimated flow date. In that case, you won't flow either.

SilentLurker

I see so many good reasons why NH's should stay away from threads that derail like this,

Useful information turns to therapy & vent sessions. Hard to sort & flush for a new guy/gal.

Innocent or blatant mistake of 1 or 2 pilots does not project to the remaining 1850+ doing the right thing. That's my personal opinion.

NH's: Don't get lazy, follow the rules & ask multiple questions before assuming wrongly about the rules & what you should know or do.

TrinityDawn

What cr700 and dacuj are doing isn't offering useful information, they are acting liked used car salesmen trying to sucker new hires in based on rainbows and unicorns. People need to know the whole truth before making a career decision to spend 6+ years of their lives working for AAG.

highflyer1980

Exactly. My deepest thoughts about these guys with their own agendas as well. They act like they are helping you by telling you the positives that are exaggerated, when they have their own personal agendas for themselves. More NHs = guaranteed flow for them.

Dacuj

I don't know about anyone else, but I can tell you that I'm staying positive and trying to offer potential new hires an accurate picture of where Envoy is. Unlike you who is 100% negative and never offers anything good. I've never seen you post on the benefits of the flow or the rapidly dropping upgrade. With you, it's just horrible schedules, horrible management, etc.

Guys like me have to be here to counter the BS you and a few others put out. Try to stay positive for a change. You might like it.

copycopy

These threads are interesting in that they remind me of political garbage on other social media. You have your left and your right, both of which are incapable of accepting the validity of their counterparts arguments.

What we have here are the envoy is the best, and envoy is the worst. The two groups don't seem to accept what the other side is saying.

What would have to happen for those of you who discourage new hires from coming to envoy before you started to sell envoy as a good place to work? It seems as though the improvements that have been awarded recently, although not as much as I would like to see, fall on deaf ears and it is as though those improvements are actually making envoy worse because they aren't improvement enough.

On the flip side; exactly how awful would envoy have to become in order for the salesmen group begin to acknowledge that envoy isn't as great as it should be? Why is the contentious relationship between labor and management ignored by these posters?

Here's my take on what is going on at envoy. I'll start with the bad.

Schedules are awful. The 4-on-2-off is really taking a toll on a lot of people. It is absolutely ridiculous that we have such inefficient schedules that lead to being away from home for so much time without working and making money. This is more a product of AAG producing flight files for envoy that are wildly inefficient and thus creating miserable pairings and trips. When and if, big if, AAG starts to give us a more envoy friendly flight file the schedules will improve. This is the biggest detriment to the farming out of flying, as when it was just American Eagle doing the flying the ability to make efficient schedules was far easier due to the massive selection of flights and pairings.

The company is blanket denying return days that were awarded for a contract violation settlement. I see this as a further violation of the contract which states that they will have the airline properly staffed, not sure why we haven't filed a grievance on that yet. This, however, doesn't effect new hires, it just affects the overall morale of the pilot group and creates further animosity towards management.

This year, just finishing up my 4th year, I will make just less than a new hire with all of the new incentives. This is also a slap in the face to everybody who works their butt off day in and day out or the company. The company knows it needs to hire people, but is unwilling to create meaningful improvements for those on property. That attitude throws more coal on the fire with regards to the knowledge that management really doesn't care about the well being if their employees.

With that being said, those bonuses are bringing in new hires. And we're on to the good. So long as there is movement, which isn't necessarily something you can 100% count on, envoy is a good place to work. It gives me a great peace of mind to know that I will eventually flow up to American if Delta/United/FedEx/UPS, et. al. Don't happen within the next 4-5 years. I can apply to the other major carriers, which all pay more than American at the moment, but still have a mainline career in my back pocket. This only happens if there is movement, and right now there is. With the retirements at AA over the next 10 years the flow will continue, and will likely be necessary for them to maintain their regional operation, as if they stop the flow pilots will jump ship like the rats on the titanic.

New York reopening is a positive. Having had LGA along with MIA close was horrible, but they're reopening a base which is welcome news. I hope that trend continues and wouldn't be surprised *speculation alert* to see consolidation amongst the regional feed over the next several years.

The FO retention bonuses were a welcome boost for us despite them being 1/2 of endeavors bonuses. At the low FO pay $10k annually goes a long way. There were added captain bonuses, but they were pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things. While it is my belief that management needs to open the pocket book to continue the upward trend, those bonuses were the beginning of reversing the negative trend. But rest assured that our management will do the absolute minimum required to keep our airline staffed, and they haven't even really met that minimum yet. The biggest two things the company could do to improve our lives would be to fix the schedules and agree to a min day pay or duty/trip rigs, but that's basically a pipe dream.

The large new hire classes are a good sign. If you are thinking of coming here now and understand the pros and cons, you will have dozens of people below you in no time, and with movement continuing it should be a shorter stay at envoy than those who have been on property. But do understand that those who are already here didn't start with $20k bonuses and $37/hr first year pay, and really didn't get enough back to make up for the shafting during the multiple concessionary contract rounds.

The latest vacancy bid for 100 captain is also a good sign the were moving in the right direction.

In short, the TL;DR version, if you will,
take what the detractors and the salesmen say with a grain of salt. Could envoy be better? Yes, much. Could envoy be worse? Also yes. Was this company better when it was Eagle flying for AMR? Yes, at least for the very brief time that I was at Eagle before the merger, and from what the old guys tell me.
Edit: to clarify, I'm still at envoy but was hired only a year prior to the merger.

Things aren't great but they're getting better.

FlameNSky

While I agree that cr700 and dacuj are definitely men with an agenda, what you two as well as smutter etc etc do is no different, just the opposite. While they are all rainbows and butterflies, you guys have nothing but complaints and doom and gloom. Your agendas may be different, but you are as obvious as they are in what your agendas are. If not for the fact that I fly with guys everyday at this company, if I didn't know any better, I would stay away from envoy just to avoid flying with people with such negativity and disgruntlement such as yourself. (I do understand that away from the keyboard, you are not really this way, but that is the only image you project on here).

While I readily agree that envoy has its far share of problems, but no company is as bad as you like to make it out to be. Not every pilot at Republic get 25 hr commutable three day trips. Not every skywest pilot gets everything they ask for with PBS. Even mainline pilots work holidays and get JM'd. Am Eagle had it really good under AMR. We were insulated from many of the aspects that regional pilots face such as a lack of cadence or 2 days off between trips. I agree that compared to how it was under AMR, envoy's schedules really suck now. The objective reality of the average envoy pilots situation now is, that we suck as bad as every other regional now. Yup, envoy sucks, just like everyone else sucks. The other difference is the other regionals don't have a group of butt hurt pilots upset that their figurative, silver spoon, was taken out of their mouths.

I'm not saying that we don't deserve better. And wholeheartedly believe we should fight for better. I'm just saying that the temper tantrum-negative posts in response to each and every positive or neutral comment someone makes is kind of pathetic. I understand that you feel that by "exposing" their bad management practices (and they are bad management practices) that you can force them into treating us better but the cold hard fact of the matter is, it won't. As the union has been telling them for years, money talks. The few "informed" new hires you may scare away won't make a huge dent in their new hire numbers now that the financial needs and expectations of new hires are being met.

At the end of the day, you are just making envoy pilots look bad while at best, barely slighting the company.

ag386

Sorry, I can't see that you imparted any words of wisdom here. In fact, I would question your decision making skills and frame of mind. If you've been at Envoy as long as you claim, it would appear that you have been brainwashed by the management team.

No other regional works 4 on 2 off.

No other regional gets a MA coded for a FTG call.

No other regional violates the contract as willfully and repeatedly as Envoy.

You should give some consideration to shutter and TrinityDawn. They seem to not have guzzled the Envoy management kool aid. Check the mirror for that kool aid mustache my man. Time to get real.

ORDinary

So you think 360-400 flows next year is accurate? And does cr700 still insist that 40/mo is beginning in January? Were those honest mistakes on your part and his? I don't think so, considering how you both pretend you didn't make those claims. Why don't you answer for that?

I have posted the positives of working here (have you ever admitted the negatives?): upgrade times are dropping fast, first year pay is a huge improvement, training is great here, the flow is a huge benefit. But you don't think these positives are enough, and you insist on inflating the flow numbers beyond reality, and insist that the negatives are exaggerated. They are not. People should have the whole truth when making important decisions, not just the management spin and incorrect numbers. You management types and management apologists are inflating flow numbers for your own gain, and refuse to admit the many problems we are having. We are going to continue calling you out until you start telling the truth.