How long for a contract?
11-17-2024 | 06:26 AM
#921
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,748
Likes: 54
Right.....
You randomly come on here and tried to tell us we can't get what we want and we should just leave and get on the Delta seniority list below you. You mocked us for asking for industry standard. Just give up on our fight. Like a good union brother would, right? In solidarity, brother!
No. You clearly came here in an inflammatory manner. And have clearly been excited to respond to every single post since your first telling us that we can't do as well as you.
I will however play along. I can't remember if it was United or AA but when they agreed to their new contract the CEO was on CNBC and when asked how they would pay for the huge pat raises he just shrugged and said "we will pass the cost along to the customer. It will have no impact on our margins"
And he was right. That's how business works. And it's how Frontier will do it as well. Our ticket prices will go up. That's the answer to your question. Fortunately for us, even if our ticket prices have to go up $20, we can still dramatically undercut Delta on cost. Pilot pay is only a small part of our CASM savings compared to our competitors.
As a fellow union pilot, you should want us to do well and you clearly don't. I know you said you do, but its obvious you don't. And it's sad and misinformed. We are an industry together, and we build off of eachothers contract progress. What's good for Delta pilots is good for us and vice versa. You don't know what's good for you. You just want to see us do worse and you want to see more people junior to you at Delta. Nice.
Don't come here telling us to aim lower. That's being the worst kind of fellow union brother. It's up to Frontier to figure out how to raise revenue, not for you to come tell us to settle for less pay. Hard to believe any fellow would do that.
You randomly come on here and tried to tell us we can't get what we want and we should just leave and get on the Delta seniority list below you. You mocked us for asking for industry standard. Just give up on our fight. Like a good union brother would, right? In solidarity, brother!
No. You clearly came here in an inflammatory manner. And have clearly been excited to respond to every single post since your first telling us that we can't do as well as you.
I will however play along. I can't remember if it was United or AA but when they agreed to their new contract the CEO was on CNBC and when asked how they would pay for the huge pat raises he just shrugged and said "we will pass the cost along to the customer. It will have no impact on our margins"
And he was right. That's how business works. And it's how Frontier will do it as well. Our ticket prices will go up. That's the answer to your question. Fortunately for us, even if our ticket prices have to go up $20, we can still dramatically undercut Delta on cost. Pilot pay is only a small part of our CASM savings compared to our competitors.
As a fellow union pilot, you should want us to do well and you clearly don't. I know you said you do, but its obvious you don't. And it's sad and misinformed. We are an industry together, and we build off of eachothers contract progress. What's good for Delta pilots is good for us and vice versa. You don't know what's good for you. You just want to see us do worse and you want to see more people junior to you at Delta. Nice.
Don't come here telling us to aim lower. That's being the worst kind of fellow union brother. It's up to Frontier to figure out how to raise revenue, not for you to come tell us to settle for less pay. Hard to believe any fellow would do that.
11-17-2024 | 12:31 PM
#922
New Hire
Joined: Nov 2024
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Right.....
You randomly come on here and tried to tell us we can't get what we want and we should just leave and get on the Delta seniority list below you. You mocked us for asking for industry standard. Just give up on our fight. Like a good union brother would, right? In solidarity, brother!
No. You clearly came here in an inflammatory manner. And have clearly been excited to respond to every single post since your first telling us that we can't do as well as you.
I will however play along. I can't remember if it was United or AA but when they agreed to their new contract the CEO was on CNBC and when asked how they would pay for the huge pat raises he just shrugged and said "we will pass the cost along to the customer. It will have no impact on our margins"
And he was right. That's how business works. And it's how Frontier will do it as well. Our ticket prices will go up. That's the answer to your question. Fortunately for us, even if our ticket prices have to go up $20, we can still dramatically undercut Delta on cost. Pilot pay is only a small part of our CASM savings compared to our competitors.
As a fellow union pilot, you should want us to do well and you clearly don't. I know you said you do, but its obvious you don't. And it's sad and misinformed. We are an industry together, and we build off of eachothers contract progress. What's good for Delta pilots is good for us and vice versa. You don't know what's good for you. You just want to see us do worse and you want to see more people junior to you at Delta. Nice.
Don't come here telling us to aim lower. That's being the worst kind of fellow union brother. It's up to Frontier to figure out how to raise revenue, not for you to come tell us to settle for less pay. Hard to believe any fellow would do that.
You randomly come on here and tried to tell us we can't get what we want and we should just leave and get on the Delta seniority list below you. You mocked us for asking for industry standard. Just give up on our fight. Like a good union brother would, right? In solidarity, brother!
No. You clearly came here in an inflammatory manner. And have clearly been excited to respond to every single post since your first telling us that we can't do as well as you.
I will however play along. I can't remember if it was United or AA but when they agreed to their new contract the CEO was on CNBC and when asked how they would pay for the huge pat raises he just shrugged and said "we will pass the cost along to the customer. It will have no impact on our margins"
And he was right. That's how business works. And it's how Frontier will do it as well. Our ticket prices will go up. That's the answer to your question. Fortunately for us, even if our ticket prices have to go up $20, we can still dramatically undercut Delta on cost. Pilot pay is only a small part of our CASM savings compared to our competitors.
As a fellow union pilot, you should want us to do well and you clearly don't. I know you said you do, but its obvious you don't. And it's sad and misinformed. We are an industry together, and we build off of eachothers contract progress. What's good for Delta pilots is good for us and vice versa. You don't know what's good for you. You just want to see us do worse and you want to see more people junior to you at Delta. Nice.
Don't come here telling us to aim lower. That's being the worst kind of fellow union brother. It's up to Frontier to figure out how to raise revenue, not for you to come tell us to settle for less pay. Hard to believe any fellow would do that.
Joined here after lurking awhile just to agree with you. It's up to management to find the money, not for us to give it to them. A rising tide lifts all boats, and it's in everyone's interest for us to get a good contract.
As far as finding the money goes, (for what it's worth) BL was in our RGS class this week and said (paraphrasing) "We've mostly been driven by lowering costs since we adopted the ULCC model, and the industry is moving in a direction that makes that focus less competitive. We're going to have to modify our model."
I'll admit I was pretty surprised to hear him actually admit as much, especially to a room full of pilots. Food for thought anyway, considering he also alluded to actual first class and wifi (for the umpteenth time- we'll see).
Management is just going to stall as long as they can for the CBA (IMO). Wear the lanyards, go to the events if you can swing them, and support the union and your fellow pilots as best you can. It looks like it'll be a while, and there's still a lot of living to do between now and then.
11-17-2024 | 02:58 PM
#923
Line Holder
Joined: Jan 2022
Posts: 213
Likes: 20
No, my questions were not inflammatory at all. I simply asked how you expect F9 to spend another $200 million on the new contract per year when they're not even making that much in profit. You guys didn't like the question and started calling me names.
And I didn't say you are a bunch of Denny's servers. I simply compared what Denny's servers can make compared to the servers of a fancier restaurant that makes more money. in that example, I'd be a server as well.
Anyway, as I said before, best of luck. Your company needs to make more money to pay you what you're asking, and I hope that happens soon.
And I didn't say you are a bunch of Denny's servers. I simply compared what Denny's servers can make compared to the servers of a fancier restaurant that makes more money. in that example, I'd be a server as well.
Anyway, as I said before, best of luck. Your company needs to make more money to pay you what you're asking, and I hope that happens soon.
c
A couple random thoughts. A standard tactic in negotiating is to always ask for more than you think is possible. Passengers already paying the max they can? So if a flight is $1 more there will be no takers? $5? $10?. I think the relationship is more related to what other options they have. Pilot pay and relating it to profit, insurance or whatever. Yes, absolutely the company will use those items in negotiating if it helps them and effects the outcome. I think what F9 pilots will end up with has more to do with what leverage is available, how good the negotiators are on each side, how badly a contract is wanted by either side, pilot solidarity etc.
When you ask, what makes someone think they can get X, it can be a moving target. I think asking or thinking why a pilot shouldn't be as paid the same as other similar pilots is the healthiest mindset. So why destroy that? I can see why you were called anti-union for that. You are not helping other pilots with unity, therefore not a team player. To think you wont get paid equally to others in same positions is self defeating to all on the labor side. In the end, it's hard to answer what is a pilot worth. Perhaps you are worth what you can negotiate. DAL did a fine job for all of us with their last contract.
11-17-2024 | 03:20 PM
#924
A321
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 244
Likes: 35
3000. Your questions may not be inflammatory but many of your comments are...go back and read them. You are offending people here. That's not an effective way to get a good discussion . The fact you can't see that, is certainly not helping you.
c
A couple random thoughts. A standard tactic in negotiating is to always ask for more than you think is possible. Passengers already paying the max they can? So if a flight is $1 more there will be no takers? $5? $10?. I think the relationship is more related to what other options they have. Pilot pay and relating it to profit, insurance or whatever. Yes, absolutely the company will use those items in negotiating if it helps them and effects the outcome. I think what F9 pilots will end up with has more to do with what leverage is available, how good the negotiators are on each side, how badly a contract is wanted by either side, pilot solidarity etc.
When you ask, what makes someone think they can get X, it can be a moving target. I think asking or thinking why a pilot shouldn't be as paid the same as other similar pilots is the healthiest mindset. So why destroy that? I can see why you were called anti-union for that. You are not helping other pilots with unity, therefore not a team player. To think you wont get paid equally to others in same positions is self defeating to all on the labor side. In the end, it's hard to answer what is a pilot worth. Perhaps you are worth what you can negotiate. DAL did a fine job for all of us with their last contract.
c
A couple random thoughts. A standard tactic in negotiating is to always ask for more than you think is possible. Passengers already paying the max they can? So if a flight is $1 more there will be no takers? $5? $10?. I think the relationship is more related to what other options they have. Pilot pay and relating it to profit, insurance or whatever. Yes, absolutely the company will use those items in negotiating if it helps them and effects the outcome. I think what F9 pilots will end up with has more to do with what leverage is available, how good the negotiators are on each side, how badly a contract is wanted by either side, pilot solidarity etc.
When you ask, what makes someone think they can get X, it can be a moving target. I think asking or thinking why a pilot shouldn't be as paid the same as other similar pilots is the healthiest mindset. So why destroy that? I can see why you were called anti-union for that. You are not helping other pilots with unity, therefore not a team player. To think you wont get paid equally to others in same positions is self defeating to all on the labor side. In the end, it's hard to answer what is a pilot worth. Perhaps you are worth what you can negotiate. DAL did a fine job for all of us with their last contract.
we even still are a discount since every carrier now has profit sharing and we just want equal hourly + health insurance and retirement.
11-17-2024 | 06:11 PM
#925
Line Holder
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 293
Likes: 13
I was a commercial pilot almost 20 years ago, but had to stop flying for a long time. But that's besides the point. You guys started acting like kids when I asked a couple of genuine questions. Anyway, as I said before, I wish you guys the best, and hope F9 makes enough money to pay you what you're asking. But right now, I don't think your demands are realistic.
Hey guys,
Low time CPL MEIR with just over 300 TT.
I am considering these 2 options: Getting my CFI/CFII/MEI and instruct to get to 1500 or go with an offer I have from a friend of a friend to pay for my own type rating on Hawker 700 and/or 800 and fly in the right seat as SIC.
Which one is more valuable between single piston PIC and jet SIC when it comes to applying to regionals?
Both options will cost me around $15K
Thanks in advance.
Low time CPL MEIR with just over 300 TT.
I am considering these 2 options: Getting my CFI/CFII/MEI and instruct to get to 1500 or go with an offer I have from a friend of a friend to pay for my own type rating on Hawker 700 and/or 800 and fly in the right seat as SIC.
Which one is more valuable between single piston PIC and jet SIC when it comes to applying to regionals?
Both options will cost me around $15K
Thanks in advance.
Has anyone with a DUI expunged or not been hired or turned down because of it?
Please only comment if you know someone in a similar situation.
Canada doesn't allow entry for DUI unless 5 years have passed.
Does the airline hire you and just assign you to non-Canada routes or simply not hire?
Please only comment if you know someone in a similar situation.
Canada doesn't allow entry for DUI unless 5 years have passed.
Does the airline hire you and just assign you to non-Canada routes or simply not hire?
As a former F9er and current Widget, I wish you guys the best in getting the great contract you deserve. I also hope this idiot isn’t really at Delta and is just some kid in his parents’ basement with no life like his posts suggest. If he did slip through the cracks and got hired at Delta, he is an outlier and not representative of the pilot group here. Seeing that he was willing to pay for training to fly SIC in a Hawker 700 in 2019 says all you need to know about his character.
11-18-2024 | 08:21 AM
#926
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,942
Likes: 95
From: Lineholder
If mgt is just now realizing this (many have been stating this for months), then we're already behind...
11-18-2024 | 12:29 PM
#927
On Reserve
Joined: Nov 2023
Posts: 170
Likes: 29
Late to the party as usual. I would be remissed if I did not weigh in
Pay
It is a question that keeps coming back like a boomerang. Roughly every three months like clockwork some SPoster will come to the F9 forum and "ask" why we should be paid more then we are ,or the same as anyone else (never happens on the Allegant forum for some reason). Always with the assertion that we should be paid less. This is not acoincidence. It is to sow FUD. Some one belives they can brow beat our pilots playing on an inferiority complex to accept less, to work for less. I find the Idea more insulting then the words. The concept makes me angry. That some JA can come on to our board and casually make implications that we should be paid less based on his limited experance. All to make the stock go up a few points.
I won't make any guesses who this person is, Though I doubt he works at Delta or for any airline. Expect some other JA to pop up in the next few weeks to "ask' a simmiler question.
The answer is always the same. People are not paid what they are worth. A Doctor and a Real Estate can earn the same. Is a Doctor who workes an an ER saving lives every day worth the same as a Real Estate agent who drive around showing people houses? No
People get paid what they accept. Delta pilots get paid more because they refuse to accept less. How much is Biffle getting paid? Soulden't he be getting paid less ? Especially now that the ULCC,Dayturns and Denver gates are not showing to be as profitable as they were preposed. Should the Frontier pilots Finance more bad managment, poor route structure, terrible trips and out door gates with our low wages?
We will end up getting paid what we accept. Question ANYONE who "asks questions " about why we should be paid more. Likely that person has no business asking these questions, or ulterior motives for doing so.
Chris Voss Never Split the difference
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYnn...LVyPQQ8EOamZ64
Pay
It is a question that keeps coming back like a boomerang. Roughly every three months like clockwork some SPoster will come to the F9 forum and "ask" why we should be paid more then we are ,or the same as anyone else (never happens on the Allegant forum for some reason). Always with the assertion that we should be paid less. This is not acoincidence. It is to sow FUD. Some one belives they can brow beat our pilots playing on an inferiority complex to accept less, to work for less. I find the Idea more insulting then the words. The concept makes me angry. That some JA can come on to our board and casually make implications that we should be paid less based on his limited experance. All to make the stock go up a few points.
I won't make any guesses who this person is, Though I doubt he works at Delta or for any airline. Expect some other JA to pop up in the next few weeks to "ask' a simmiler question.
The answer is always the same. People are not paid what they are worth. A Doctor and a Real Estate can earn the same. Is a Doctor who workes an an ER saving lives every day worth the same as a Real Estate agent who drive around showing people houses? No
People get paid what they accept. Delta pilots get paid more because they refuse to accept less. How much is Biffle getting paid? Soulden't he be getting paid less ? Especially now that the ULCC,Dayturns and Denver gates are not showing to be as profitable as they were preposed. Should the Frontier pilots Finance more bad managment, poor route structure, terrible trips and out door gates with our low wages?
We will end up getting paid what we accept. Question ANYONE who "asks questions " about why we should be paid more. Likely that person has no business asking these questions, or ulterior motives for doing so.
Chris Voss Never Split the difference
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYnn...LVyPQQ8EOamZ64
11-21-2024 | 12:29 PM
#928
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,749
Likes: 99
From: 1900D CA
The NMB only has so much power, and it isn't a lot, but our new mediator is.... awesome.
Jack’s labor relations experience includes a multitude of positions with the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA). During his time with US Airways he served as Chairman of the US Airways Pilots Strike Preparedness Committee, Chairman of the Communications Committee (where he was lead media spokesman for US Airways second bankruptcy), System Board member, member of the Merger Committee, member of ALPA’s Education Committee, Local Council Chairman and Chairman of the US Airways Master Executive Council during the merger with America West Airlines. He was also instrumental in establishing the Family Awareness Program at US Airways as well as helping develop ALPA’s “Pilot to Pilot” program, a grass roots internal organizing program.
Jack’s labor relations experience includes a multitude of positions with the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA). During his time with US Airways he served as Chairman of the US Airways Pilots Strike Preparedness Committee, Chairman of the Communications Committee (where he was lead media spokesman for US Airways second bankruptcy), System Board member, member of the Merger Committee, member of ALPA’s Education Committee, Local Council Chairman and Chairman of the US Airways Master Executive Council during the merger with America West Airlines. He was also instrumental in establishing the Family Awareness Program at US Airways as well as helping develop ALPA’s “Pilot to Pilot” program, a grass roots internal organizing program.
11-21-2024 | 07:24 PM
#929
On Reserve
Joined: May 2024
Posts: 106
Likes: 1
The NMB only has so much power, and it isn't a lot, but our new mediator is.... awesome.
Jack’s labor relations experience includes a multitude of positions with the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA). During his time with US Airways he served as Chairman of the US Airways Pilots Strike Preparedness Committee, Chairman of the Communications Committee (where he was lead media spokesman for US Airways second bankruptcy), System Board member, member of the Merger Committee, member of ALPA’s Education Committee, Local Council Chairman and Chairman of the US Airways Master Executive Council during the merger with America West Airlines. He was also instrumental in establishing the Family Awareness Program at US Airways as well as helping develop ALPA’s “Pilot to Pilot” program, a grass roots internal organizing program.
Jack’s labor relations experience includes a multitude of positions with the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA). During his time with US Airways he served as Chairman of the US Airways Pilots Strike Preparedness Committee, Chairman of the Communications Committee (where he was lead media spokesman for US Airways second bankruptcy), System Board member, member of the Merger Committee, member of ALPA’s Education Committee, Local Council Chairman and Chairman of the US Airways Master Executive Council during the merger with America West Airlines. He was also instrumental in establishing the Family Awareness Program at US Airways as well as helping develop ALPA’s “Pilot to Pilot” program, a grass roots internal organizing program.
11-22-2024 | 05:08 AM
#930
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,363
Likes: 102
From: Joystick Operator
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