The TA is finally here
07-02-2018 | 10:26 AM
#401
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,274
Likes: 55
From: 190 captain and “Pro-pilot”
From listening to the Scheduling video (around 1:08:30), I'm seriously bummed to hear that once you bid any type of reserve in PBS you can't bounce back to bidding a line. For example if you wanted Long Call but wanted a line if you couldn't get Long Call, there is no option for this. Once you bid Long Call, you have to settle for Short Call if you can't get Long Call. (Same thing would apply if you wanted Short Call then a Line then Long Call. No option for this.)
If Long Call ends up being an attractive option (especially for commuters), many would have to take a risk bidding Long Call. If you were avoiding a crappy line, trying to get certain days off, or just liked Long Call, but you didn't want to spend a ton of days in base, you are taking a risk by bidding Long Call because you could end up getting stuck with a completely Short Call schedule. On the flip side, if Long Call ends up being an unattractive option due to them being the primary recipients of Next Day Assignments, and Short Call isn't that bad, you take a risk by bidding Short Call and possibly getting stuck with a Long Call schedule.
This seems to seriously reduce the benefit of having reserve divided up into Long Call and Short Call.
If Long Call ends up being an attractive option (especially for commuters), many would have to take a risk bidding Long Call. If you were avoiding a crappy line, trying to get certain days off, or just liked Long Call, but you didn't want to spend a ton of days in base, you are taking a risk by bidding Long Call because you could end up getting stuck with a completely Short Call schedule. On the flip side, if Long Call ends up being an unattractive option due to them being the primary recipients of Next Day Assignments, and Short Call isn't that bad, you take a risk by bidding Short Call and possibly getting stuck with a Long Call schedule.
This seems to seriously reduce the benefit of having reserve divided up into Long Call and Short Call.
That would be total crap because that’s kind of how I bid. If I can get something I try to grab it on rsv and if I can’t get it there I will take a crappy line.
07-02-2018 | 10:31 AM
#402
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 247
Likes: 0
I don't think they specified. I also don't think it matters. If it was spelled out in the TA, then the company would be required to have a vendor that met the TA. It's all programming. I don't see why this couldn't be programmed.
07-02-2018 | 10:31 AM
#403
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,174
Likes: 27
So, I want to point something out, especially at this airline.
There are a large number of people who won't EVER be senior at this airline. They're too old, or they got in too late, or they live in too senior of a base, or they upgraded.
I was told at XJT to shut up and color because "one day I'd be senior too." Guess what? 14 months later I got furloughed, and when I came back I never upgraded. If I had stuck around, it would have been a 10.5 year upgrade at a regional. This could happen here. What happens if upgrading means spending 15 years on reserve? I know someone is going to say, "DON'T UPGRADE!" but there comes a point where you have to start funding your retirement.
So there are a large number of people out there who have to consider that they won't get senior here, and their perspective isn't invalid because they weren't able to get hired in 2003.
There are a large number of people who won't EVER be senior at this airline. They're too old, or they got in too late, or they live in too senior of a base, or they upgraded.
I was told at XJT to shut up and color because "one day I'd be senior too." Guess what? 14 months later I got furloughed, and when I came back I never upgraded. If I had stuck around, it would have been a 10.5 year upgrade at a regional. This could happen here. What happens if upgrading means spending 15 years on reserve? I know someone is going to say, "DON'T UPGRADE!" but there comes a point where you have to start funding your retirement.
So there are a large number of people out there who have to consider that they won't get senior here, and their perspective isn't invalid because they weren't able to get hired in 2003.
You're right to an extent. This is a pretty young airline in general, but "senior" is relative, no? I sit as a senior 320 FO and do really well in terms of pay and QOL. And that can be true for many airlines. IF you get hired at 45-50 after a military career, you're seniority at Delta or United will be much different than a commuter getting on at 27.
Also, SWA seniority progression is arguably worse than even ours at this point post Airtran merger. Yet I'd venture to guess people would go there 9 times out of 10 over us (unless you live in/near Boston/FLL).
The point is that you many be on reserve today at JB, but you'll have a line soon. You may be flying nothing but redeyes and 10 hr 3-days, but you'll be able to hold them soon. You may only be a mid senior 320FO, but you could hold 190 CA soon. Etc. I hear too many people taking a snapshot of where they are right this second and making decisions based on that, and not picking their head up and looking at what's coming around the corner.
07-02-2018 | 10:32 AM
#404
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,274
Likes: 55
From: 190 captain and “Pro-pilot”
Name calling on my part is definitely sophomoric...and unnecessary. But it made me feel good for about .69 seconds. Having said that, it's still stupid and brings no value to a well needed discussion.
I've always thought that even before the AIP came out that I thought the greatest gains needed were going to affect the middle to lower seniority guys disproportionately. I was okay with that because of how far behind we were in work rules, vacation distribution/allocation, etc. I'm not on reserve. I would get the vacation I want now (if took vacation). I don't ever fly 3 day 10-hr trips, or redeyes. I realize that I've been fortunate not to have to feel the frustration that so many of my brothers have felt forever on the line or sitting reserve.
What my hope was that I wouldn't have to feel like this is a concessionary contract, which it is very much for me right now. The frustrating thing isn't towards the guys who say this is a significant increase in pay/QOL and are voting based on that. I many not agree with their somewhat shortsighted view (they'll be senior one day too!). My frustration is with the guys who are happy with this because it's "The first contract, we'll really get em next time!" or the "What happens if the economy tanks. We'll be screwed! Let's lock em in now before it's too late!!"
Overall, this contract is at the very bottom of our peer group, and gets worse each year. Especially when the Deltas and Uniteds and SWAs renegotiate their next contract in a few years. It is what it is. We all have 1 vote to do what we think is best for ourselves and family. I was hoping it would be a better deal overall, that's all.
I've always thought that even before the AIP came out that I thought the greatest gains needed were going to affect the middle to lower seniority guys disproportionately. I was okay with that because of how far behind we were in work rules, vacation distribution/allocation, etc. I'm not on reserve. I would get the vacation I want now (if took vacation). I don't ever fly 3 day 10-hr trips, or redeyes. I realize that I've been fortunate not to have to feel the frustration that so many of my brothers have felt forever on the line or sitting reserve.
What my hope was that I wouldn't have to feel like this is a concessionary contract, which it is very much for me right now. The frustrating thing isn't towards the guys who say this is a significant increase in pay/QOL and are voting based on that. I many not agree with their somewhat shortsighted view (they'll be senior one day too!). My frustration is with the guys who are happy with this because it's "The first contract, we'll really get em next time!" or the "What happens if the economy tanks. We'll be screwed! Let's lock em in now before it's too late!!"
Overall, this contract is at the very bottom of our peer group, and gets worse each year. Especially when the Deltas and Uniteds and SWAs renegotiate their next contract in a few years. It is what it is. We all have 1 vote to do what we think is best for ourselves and family. I was hoping it would be a better deal overall, that's all.
Yeah I hear you and understand. My post was more of a commentary how some guys act (not you)and unless you have their bona fides you cant talk. Man I have been reading to much bluepilots
07-02-2018 | 10:37 AM
#405
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 247
Likes: 0
This is also just another case of where I think the TA is light on legal language. Many of the sections read more like "Highlights" than a legal contract. I've written leases that had way more detail (relative to the number of things that are being agreed on.)
07-02-2018 | 10:39 AM
#406
Line Holder
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,571
Likes: 86
Name calling on my part is definitely sophomoric...and unnecessary. But it made me feel good for about .69 seconds. Having said that, it's still stupid and brings no value to a well needed discussion.
I've always thought that even before the AIP came out that I thought the greatest gains needed were going to affect the middle to lower seniority guys disproportionately. I was okay with that because of how far behind we were in work rules, vacation distribution/allocation, etc. I'm not on reserve. I would get the vacation I want now (if took vacation). I don't ever fly 3 day 10-hr trips, or redeyes. I realize that I've been fortunate not to have to feel the frustration that so many of my brothers have felt forever on the line or sitting reserve.
What my hope was that I wouldn't have to feel like this is a concessionary contract, which it is very much for me right now. The frustrating thing isn't towards the guys who say this is a significant increase in pay/QOL and are voting based on that. I many not agree with their somewhat shortsighted view (they'll be senior one day too!). My frustration is with the guys who are happy with this because it's "The first contract, we'll really get em next time!" or the "What happens if the economy tanks. We'll be screwed! Let's lock em in now before it's too late!!"
Overall, this contract is at the very bottom of our peer group, and gets worse each year. Especially when the Deltas and Uniteds and SWAs renegotiate their next contract in a few years. It is what it is. We all have 1 vote to do what we think is best for ourselves and family. I was hoping it would be a better deal overall, that's all.
I've always thought that even before the AIP came out that I thought the greatest gains needed were going to affect the middle to lower seniority guys disproportionately. I was okay with that because of how far behind we were in work rules, vacation distribution/allocation, etc. I'm not on reserve. I would get the vacation I want now (if took vacation). I don't ever fly 3 day 10-hr trips, or redeyes. I realize that I've been fortunate not to have to feel the frustration that so many of my brothers have felt forever on the line or sitting reserve.
What my hope was that I wouldn't have to feel like this is a concessionary contract, which it is very much for me right now. The frustrating thing isn't towards the guys who say this is a significant increase in pay/QOL and are voting based on that. I many not agree with their somewhat shortsighted view (they'll be senior one day too!). My frustration is with the guys who are happy with this because it's "The first contract, we'll really get em next time!" or the "What happens if the economy tanks. We'll be screwed! Let's lock em in now before it's too late!!"
Overall, this contract is at the very bottom of our peer group, and gets worse each year. Especially when the Deltas and Uniteds and SWAs renegotiate their next contract in a few years. It is what it is. We all have 1 vote to do what we think is best for ourselves and family. I was hoping it would be a better deal overall, that's all.
This TA is not at the bottom and not even close. A thorough inspection clearly points out we fall roughly in the middle in almost every definable category. On those that cannot be defined or are vague then the "market rate" term is debatable. We can't expect to be compared to DAL and UAL for every category because they are the highest paid but they don't have the "best" work rules or rules that benefit the Jetblue pilot. As an example, the ability to build and require a percentage of commutable trips is unheard of and something no one else has. I am not a commuter but that ability will greatly improve the lives of many pilots.
Am I going to be paid the same rates as a senior DAL pilot, NO, but then again we are not the size of DAL either. I can make that pay argument all day buts its not likely to succeed.
Next we should look at insurance. Not an easily definable section in the contract and definitely not something where there is an "industry standard". Jetblue insurance deductibles are overly high and the airline/union have chosen/lack the ability to do anything about it.
Lets also look at scope. The ability to completely limit Jetblues ability to start or have a regional do our flying is worth what to you? Delta, UAL and the rest are compensate extra for that. I would prefer not to ever have any of our flying done by a regional and we will have that ability.
High deductible, regional flying, commutable pairings...
Market rate is a very difficult thing to define but to make the statement that were at the bottom is dishonest and unreasonable. Lastly, we can only bargain for now. What does everyone else have now. We cannot bargain for Delta rates in 3 years because it doesn't work that way. Never has and never will. This TA is head and shoulders better than what we have now and, pay rates aside, there are many solid provisions in the contract. Could more sections be fixed if we vote NO? I believe they can and therefore will vote accordingly but to suggest the TA is a turd or anything else means your only knowledge of airline contracts is based on what you read on Bluepilots or here.
07-02-2018 | 10:48 AM
#407
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,047
Likes: 0
From: B6
PTO sellback is and was always a scam. If you derive a portion of you earning from PTOSB then thats a YOU problem. The sole purpose of PTOSB was to compensate for the lack of vacation and the inability of pilots to be able to bid and be awarded vacation.
For years many of us lost PTO because we were unable to bid a vacation block and then the PTO would be lost. WE WANTED VACATION.
Im sorry you are losing your ability to sell something you should never have sold but the system to be implemented is industry standard and is a huge improvement.
For years many of us lost PTO because we were unable to bid a vacation block and then the PTO would be lost. WE WANTED VACATION.
Im sorry you are losing your ability to sell something you should never have sold but the system to be implemented is industry standard and is a huge improvement.
07-02-2018 | 11:01 AM
#408
Line Holder
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,571
Likes: 86
Most pilots have no clue and its not their fault but they need to be aware. With respect to scheduling many years ago we had a pilot who was solely in charge of building pairings. The airline gave this pilot almost carte blanche and the pairing at your base were affected by the base he bid. As he made his way through the system bidding around your QOL would improve based on his presence and then the revers after he left.
The ability of the scheduling committee to guarantee that all bases will have similar pairing constructions and ALV's(line credits) is huge. Its not popular to praise the TA but then what do I care.
The ability of the scheduling committee to guarantee that all bases will have similar pairing constructions and ALV's(line credits) is huge. Its not popular to praise the TA but then what do I care.
07-02-2018 | 11:03 AM
#409
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 247
Likes: 0
I agree that the PTO/vacation system was messed up but I don't think anyone should be taking a pay cut (or staying around the same pay) with a new contract. That seems like one of the foundations of your first contract; everyone gets a pay raise. Pilots did what they had to do with their schedules and PTO for their wallets. Nobody's wallet should be getting lighter (or staying the same) with a new contract.
07-02-2018 | 11:10 AM
#410
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
We can't expect to be compared to DAL and UAL for every category because they are the highest paid but they don't have the "best" work rules or rules that benefit the Jetblue pilot. As an example, the ability to build and require a percentage of commutable trips is unheard of and something no one else has.
While there is no language in the United contract that I know of that controls how many trips must be commutable, our duty and trip rigs are such that would financially punish the company for trips starting early and ending late, so they don’t build them.
Based on what I’ve seen regarding your upcoming contract, you don’t really need scope protections because its still a cheap enough contract that it doesn’t make sense to try to outsource any flying, other than what can be done with code sharing.
Good luck.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
