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Old 06-09-2021, 06:37 AM
  #11621  
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Originally Posted by seekingblue View Post
lots to unpack here….

I think it’s safe to say you and I are on very different sides of this vote. Not trying to change your mind or your viewpoint, but rather give you insight into the mind of a yes voter. Despite 47% of us voting yes, very few of us actually are willing to be public about it.

My few points to give everyone insight into my thought process-

1) why do you consider this LOA a back stabbing for selfish reasons? Aren’t all our gains selfish? Isn’t it selfish that I want the highest pay possible? Look— I wanted this LOA to pass for one specific reason: growth. More airplanes, more pilots, more block hours— with added protections to not roll back numbers. Selfish or not, this is good for us as a pilot group. More upgrades, more new hires, and more VDA’s if that is your thing.

2) ........
Do you believe we wouldn't have growth without the FC to FC and FC to international allowance? Let's dissect this, lets say company followed the CBA and keep AA and their RJs codesharing out of our FC to FC and FC to international.

FC to FC: We would fly all of those, if company wants more frequency, We fly it. Not codeshare it to AA (which does nothing for our growth). Sounds like growth would still be there.

FC to international: if company wants to fly somewhere within our aircraft capability, WE would fly it, then they can still codeshare to AA for the further distances to which our current aircraft cannot reach. Sounds like growth for us would still be there.

So without LOA 13, the NEA can still go on within the scope of the CBA. The NEA wouldn't stop, growth wouldn't stop, and if the NEA never existed we still would continue with the planned growth on recovery. This is why I can't fathom your reasoning of saying you voted yes due to growth.

And yes we get nothing much from LOA 13, actually nothing.
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Old 06-09-2021, 07:19 AM
  #11622  
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Originally Posted by Bluedriver View Post
He can and in the absence of a negotiated agreement likely would issue a decision requiring them to stop the parts of the NEA that clearly violate the agreement.
I'm not so sure.

Look back at the arbitration of the APA vs AA scope violation in 2007. Interesting outcome and I expect the same playbook to be run here, especially with negotiations opening soon.

FWIW, it took 6 years for that ruling.
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Old 06-09-2021, 10:02 AM
  #11623  
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Originally Posted by RedOverWhite View Post
I'm not so sure.

Look back at the arbitration of the APA vs AA scope violation in 2007. Interesting outcome and I expect the same playbook to be run here, especially with negotiations opening soon.

FWIW, it took 6 years for that ruling.
Not familiar, our agreement requires expedited arbitration for scope grievances, correct? That may have been different for APA.

Do you have a link to the APA vs AA?

We'll see I guess.
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Old 06-09-2021, 11:58 AM
  #11624  
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Originally Posted by Gone Flying View Post
I do not think UALs agreement allows for anything like this. their deal is certainly better for those who get their shots on a day off though.
Oh I see what you're saying. We supposedly had guys do something similar with big drops. I got my shots on my days off long before these agreements were in place - that'll teach me!
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Old 06-09-2021, 04:26 PM
  #11625  
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Originally Posted by seekingblue View Post
lots to unpack here….

I think it’s safe to say you and I are on very different sides of this vote. Not trying to change your mind or your viewpoint, but rather give you insight into the mind of a yes voter. Despite 47% of us voting yes, very few of us actually are willing to be public about it.

My few points to give everyone insight into my thought process-

1) why do you consider this LOA a back stabbing for selfish reasons? Aren’t all our gains selfish? Isn’t it selfish that I want the highest pay possible? Look— I wanted this LOA to pass for one specific reason: growth. More airplanes, more pilots, more block hours— with added protections to not roll back numbers. Selfish or not, this is good for us as a pilot group. More upgrades, more new hires, and more VDA’s if that is your thing.

2) several of you have stated we are handing over scope “for essentially nothing.” First off, it was a limited agreement that the union can still quash after 5 years. Still no RJ’s in JetBlue paint. I respect your position, but I think scope is a trigger word for many of you. I’d invite you to look at the risks given the wording, the extent scope is being given away, and the union’s ability to take back said scope.

3)I’m sorry you felt “demoralized” by my voting yes. I assure you, I voted yes for the same reason you voted no— I want what is best for the pilot group.
I appreciate your candid response SBlue. You seem like a very decent guy, and I respect your opinion...however much I disagree with it. Let me start out by saying the backstabbing portion of my comment wasn’t necessarily geared towards this LOA. Just a general comment based on observation over the years. Although, ‘selfish reasons’ would easily apply to this LOA. Reference the old timer on the previous page who clearly doesn’t care about anyone but himself. Obviously the dude has been beaten down by this industry. I’m not saying I condone that thought process, but I get it. Your number 3 we can agree on I guess. We both want what’s best for the pilot group.
I’m going to do my best to sum up my thoughts. Weeks before this vote took place, the whole landscape of the recovery was changing. Go read my comments before this vote. New admin who had the support of the Senate and the House; we knew big stimulus packages were on the horizon. Vaccines were being rolled out in mass numbers. Domestic lockdowns were starting to end. The spring and summer expectations were changing rapidly. Bookings were skyrocketing.etc etc. Recovery and growth were happening without the AA deal. Now, the AA deal was going to add 20-25% additional growth. Great. But the company needed scope relief to achieve it. And they wanted it bad. That’s called leverage. It’s not personal; it’s just business. Instead our MEC handed it over for a 2% raise, completely useless furlough protection, and some vague bullish!t Flica usage promise.
Imo, this deal is going to happen. It’s just a matter of what we can get for it, and my ask is a heck of a lot more than what’s been offered. I sent in my survey with what it would take for me. I hope y’all did the same. Some are hard No’s on scope period. I get that. I just don’t think that’s realistic at this point.
This seems like a roadmap to a merger honestly. I have no basis for that....purely tinfoil hat theory. I hope I’m wrong.
Lastly, what I think has ****ed me off more than anything about our MEC is their inability or unwillingness to look back and see where they possibly made some mistakes. Mistakes I can handle; the inability to recognize and learn from them I can’t. I don’t know if it’s ego, arrogance, stupidity, or a combination of the three. I do like where the 191 council is headed. Seems like it’s divided between them and the rest now. Hope they can collectively come together and get the best possible deal for us.
I have much more to say, but I’m just gonna leave it there. Again, I appreciate your respectful tone seekingBlue.
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Old 06-10-2021, 09:31 AM
  #11626  
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Originally Posted by seekingblue View Post
...The bigger question is not if the NEA will stand or not. I do not see any arbitrator canceling it, under any circumstances, IMHO...
...The question becomes, if the NEA is happening, regardless of our thoughts, hopes, and wishes— where is your line in the sand?...
Am I looking at this the wrong way?
Originally Posted by seekingblue View Post
lots to unpack here….

...2) several of you have stated we are handing over scope “for essentially nothing.” First off, it was a limited agreement that the union can still quash after 5 years. Still no RJ’s in JetBlue paint. I respect your position, but I think scope is a trigger word for many of you. I’d invite you to look at the risks given the wording, the extent scope is being given away, and the union’s ability to take back said scope...
Your take on ALPA having any control over NEA are contradictory. If ALPA is unable to “quash” the NEA now, when it is only a few months underway, and the company is clearly - and by their own admission - in violation of our CBA, then none of us should expect ALPA to have any tooth to stop NEA five years from now, regardless of the violations racked up in the meantime.
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Old 06-11-2021, 09:54 AM
  #11627  
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Think of it this way - What if the company came to ALPA with an innovative plan to survive the COVID downturn. In exchange for furlough protection and a one-time 2% raise, all pilots would go to First Officer pay scale for five years. If certain growth and ASM metrics are met, the company can extend the deal to 10 years.

ALPA puts it out for ratification. Pilots vote it down. Company puts everyone on FO pay anyway, and in response ALPA takes it to arbitration.

ALPA argues that the CBA is being flagrantly violated. Company argues that even though they are violating the CBA, it helps the financial bottom line and should be allowed to continue.

So my question is this - from the arbitrator’s point of view, how is the current situation any different than this hypothetical situation?
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Old 06-11-2021, 10:40 AM
  #11628  
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Wild
cat

something or other.
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Old 06-11-2021, 12:25 PM
  #11629  
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Originally Posted by CaptCoolHand View Post
Wild
cat

something or other.
I think you need to get your SELF some HELP.
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Old 06-11-2021, 12:34 PM
  #11630  
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It’s interesting there hasn’t been any communication about the supplemental bid that is supposedly coming out on the 15th.
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