So of course you still haven’t said if it was about Netjets or not. If you say it was about flex then you don’t know what you are talking about according to your logic since you haven’t worked there. If it was about Netjets…thanks for the union support. Gonna answer that? I won’t hold my breath.

Deflecting to the defending Netjets argument again. If you read my post I am mostly clarifying when someone posts not correct or incomplete information. I also point out how we have too much soft money options vs hard money. If I take a jab at them because they are hyping a group that voted out a union I would hope you wouldn’t throw your support behind them. I will defend a pilot group with a union that is currently fighting for improvements. That’s who I am defending not the company. If you can’t see the difference I can’t help you.

Sorry if you felt attacked.

 

So was it about flex or Netjets? Still haven’t answered that. If you say it was about flex then according to your logic of never working there you don’t know what you are talking about. If it was about Netjets, well thanks for that union support.

Defending Netjets argument again? If you read my post I was clarifying missing or incorrect information. I was trying to educate a pilot that has been there a couple months. I also pointed out how we have too many soft pay options vs hard money. If I take a jab while doing that it’s because it’s a group that voted out a union. I would hope you wouldn’t throw your support behind them.

Sorry if you felt attacked.

 

How many companies FURLOUGHED pilots during COVID? How many companies shut down due to COVID? Really, guys who had jobs they were getting paid to do were upset they had to work hard and keep their jobs by flying around as passengers in company jets?? Sounds like guys who would prefer a union where the senior guys vote to furlough the less senior guys. Doesnt sound like a bad deal to me, at least they had jobs, how many pilots do you know during covid that lost theirs? It was an absolute policy that if you did not want to work during covid, the company would pay you 10 (or 12, forget the number) days to stay home and not work. Just becasue you havent spoken to anyone, doesnt mean it didnt happen. Show me somone who says it was not offered to them and you can have an arguement.


"If you really believe that Netjets pay is 20% below flexjet why would people leave flexjet to come to Netjets but not the reverse?"

So what you are saying is the guys driving their trailers around the FBO saying "Lowest paid in the industry, Longest Duty times" "Overworked and Underpaid", are lying? They are your Union brothers and I dont think they would appreciate you calling them liars!

Here is a picture if you thinkn I am lying
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...gotiations-pay

"The “REQUIRED” retirement contribution you talk about is a union bargained benefit. Something I hear flex pilots have been trying to get. How is that going?"

Flex pays a 6% bonus that the employee has a CHOICE of either taking in cash OR adding to their 401k on top of other bonuses, none of which are "REQUIRED" to go into the 401K....If it was truley a "union negotiated benefit" why wouldnt the Union allow you to take it as a cash bonus? Wouldnt it be a better "negotiation" if the employee had a choice of were it goes?

"As far as the $100k first year pay at flex I think you will be hard pressed to find a first year guy at Netjets that made less than $100k. The problem is we have so many ways to make soft money that are not guaranteed. The difference between fleets fdp is something we are hoping to rectify."

I was quoting BASE pay, you know the pay you make EVEN if you dont fly (where you make $83,000?) First officers in their first year are EASILY pulling down $130-150k at FLEX whether they are on a broken airplane or not.

What does NJ pay their guys during training? Is it 16 days at $513/day per month like Flex?

"Not sure I ever said Netjets is categorically better. Just trying to make sure accurate info is put out."

If that is the case, then PLEASE be accurate. NJ pilots are the ones saying LOWEST pay in the industry. Find me a SINGLE FLEX pilot that says they are the lowest paid in the industry? Wont happen! But let that union keep working hard for you (by the way, how much do you have to pay in Union dues to be the LOWEST paid in the industry?)

 

You still didn’t answer my question. Why do pilots leave flex to come to Netjets but it doesn’t happen the other way?

Sure some places furloughed during Covid. Some took Cares money. Some did both. Ask yourself who did not do either.

I don’t think we are comparing our pay to flex. I’m sure if you see some of the signs or trucks we have going around you will see it compares To delta and regionals.

The option of the fdp going to retirement is 1/3 goes to 401k as a direct contribution the rest is paid in cash. I know it amounts to more than 6% of my salary. They also match 59% of my 401k contributions and that will increase going forward. Personally I would like more to go into my 401k to get me closer to the max but that’s just me.

As far as the bonuses ask your fellow workers what happened to those when times got tough.

I am fine with what I pay in dues.

 

Do the signs not read "Lowest paid in the INDUSTRY", is Flex (or every other 135 operator) not in the industry? Sounds like on message boards you want to say your pay is great, but in public it is "LOWEST in the industry"? Sounds like dishonest Union speak if you ask me.

The 6% is a BONUS its not the 401k contribution similar to your FDP but based on base salary, not if you have flown fatigued (yes, again, as your signs have said). Flex matches 100% of your contribution up to 6% of your base pay.

Nobody can say what will happen and you SURELY cant say NJ is immune to a slowdown. If just happened the last slow down was great for private jets, next one may not be. If your FDP goes away (since you are not flying), you are taking a tremendous cut in pay.

As far as people leaving FLEX for NJ (or the other way around), I cant say why, I would be happy to hear from someone to see why they left. I dont believe it was due to pay. Even on this website "3yr FO pay is a day rate of $458" (on the 72 schedule), 3 yr FO pay at Flex is $544 however at that point you have upgraded to CA and would be at AT LEAST $690 (or possibly $790 if you are in a Mid).

 

I am one of the pilots reponsible for the signs you speak of. Thank you for noticing them. So you have information from the source, the "lowest paid" part is a comparrison to the legacies, LCCs and FedEX/UPS.

 

It is smart, as the airline industry is who is going to give you the support during informational pickets. But it is an interesting duality on how NJA and the pilot group spends so much time saying how they aren't an airline, they aren't the airlines, they aren't a part of the airline industry, yet when it comes to negotiations the pay and benefits are compared to the airline industry. NJA will always be a unicorn in that regard. It really is its own industry.

 

Netjets is certainly a different segment of the aviation industry. However, as you know, our ATP certificates don't state "91K/135 only" or "121 only" and the pilot shortage and hiring boom by the airlines *is* going to bite NJ in the butt, whether they realize it or not. The fact that the union and pilot group has to drag Netjets kicking and screaming into being competitive with the airlines is truly sad.

 

Well, they aren't an airline. It is why I say that they are in a really tough position. These threads on APC always divulge into a NJA versus airlines ****ing contest but the reality is, NJA isn't an airline and it will never be amongst the airlines. Doesn't mean salaries and benefits can't be fantastic. NJA doesn't play in the same sandbox as the airline industry so comparing them is silly IMHO and a large percentage of the pilot group will argue that NJA isn't an airline until it comes to negotiations. Saw it in 2015, NJASAP was screaming from the roof tops on how we needed to be compensated like the airlines, airline this airline that. Well when the CBA came out it was nowhere close to the airlines and the only thing NJASAP had to say was "well we aren't really an airline so what we got makes sense..."

NJA is probably the highest compensated pilot group within their industry segment. There will always be outliers but company wise, if I wanted to fly private jets for a career and wanted the stability of a large company, NJA is the only option, but it will never be the airlines and honestly that is perfectly fine.

 

Then why didnt the sign say "Lowest paid airline", as I said before, is FLEX (and ALL other 135 carriers), not in the same industry? The Union was not trying to mislead were they?