ATP Law Petition
03-07-2012 | 08:12 AM
#151
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
From: STS Commander
I hope your right. In my CFI days, I trained many international students who I have kept in contact with. It took several of them years to find aviation employment in their home countries. That, coupled with the M1 Visa-to-citizenship track, and we may see a new trend. Maybe it's the pessimist in me (hence the user name), but I'm sure there are plans in place for a potential "shortage".
03-07-2012 | 09:15 AM
#152
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
My comment is to his assertion that all pilots should spend 1000 hours as a CFI. And yes I was hired and worked at a regional carrier in 2007. There were a few....(two that I actually 100% know of) that had less than 500 hours in the classes around mine... one was a girl with only about 300 hours and all bought time..... However..... the vast majority of guys/gals hired had significantly more. The company I worked for put 40 of us in class that day...and the low time pilot was 900 hours.. high time just shy of 3000....
CAN pilots be trained to fly airliners with only 300 or so hours of flight time ...yes. The military system bears this out that it can be done. The difference is that while in training in the military ( at least in my time ) you where always at risk.... failure to perform on THEIR time line... and you were OUT. Given enough time and money "nearly" anyone can be taught to fly. If you really ever want to have ANY chance of changing this profession there must be REAL barrier's to entry... i.e., not everyone should be a commercial pilot and the weak should be filtered out....problem is in our current system while there are standards the system allows someone as much time to learn something as they want... i mean if you are learning to fly ILS approaches.. and it takes you 20 lessons... thats okay... the difference is that in an ab into program or in the military you are on very strict curriculum's that require you to meet standards not just at check rides but all along the way. SOLO? 8-10 flights....not 12...13... or 20....or 30.... Listen military pilots are simply trained differently... in the end we are all equal down the line. And yes...weak ones slip thru in the military as well... but they are (or were) very few in total.
Don't take this as a MIL vs CIV debate. Its not... I believe we are trained differently and 2-3,000 hours down the road depending on many factors... its all evened out. I know I am in the minority but I believe a well run, ab into program for US airlines could be a good thing. It would have to be on structured course programs that require progression on a known timeline and deviation from that timeline would have to have the possibility of failure attached. NO guarantees... (oh if you fail out ... you owe nothing). I am aware this is not a popular idea....but it might should be as the current system is not going to cut it over the years to come.
CAN pilots be trained to fly airliners with only 300 or so hours of flight time ...yes. The military system bears this out that it can be done. The difference is that while in training in the military ( at least in my time ) you where always at risk.... failure to perform on THEIR time line... and you were OUT. Given enough time and money "nearly" anyone can be taught to fly. If you really ever want to have ANY chance of changing this profession there must be REAL barrier's to entry... i.e., not everyone should be a commercial pilot and the weak should be filtered out....problem is in our current system while there are standards the system allows someone as much time to learn something as they want... i mean if you are learning to fly ILS approaches.. and it takes you 20 lessons... thats okay... the difference is that in an ab into program or in the military you are on very strict curriculum's that require you to meet standards not just at check rides but all along the way. SOLO? 8-10 flights....not 12...13... or 20....or 30.... Listen military pilots are simply trained differently... in the end we are all equal down the line. And yes...weak ones slip thru in the military as well... but they are (or were) very few in total.
Don't take this as a MIL vs CIV debate. Its not... I believe we are trained differently and 2-3,000 hours down the road depending on many factors... its all evened out. I know I am in the minority but I believe a well run, ab into program for US airlines could be a good thing. It would have to be on structured course programs that require progression on a known timeline and deviation from that timeline would have to have the possibility of failure attached. NO guarantees... (oh if you fail out ... you owe nothing). I am aware this is not a popular idea....but it might should be as the current system is not going to cut it over the years to come.
03-07-2012 | 09:51 AM
#153
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 337
Likes: 0
From: Toilet warmer.
The industry contributed to the Colgan crash.
Terrible wages, exhaustion due in part to a crew that could not afford better and a questionable performance record tolerated, until now, because few experienced pilots even want such a job.........
03-07-2012 | 12:42 PM
#154
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,422
Likes: 0
From: the correct seat
DHC8Flyer,
I see where you're coming from with the CFI route. I loved it, and I'd do it again, but instructing isn't for everybody. There are plenty of other paths to take in order to get experience.
I see where you're coming from with the CFI route. I loved it, and I'd do it again, but instructing isn't for everybody. There are plenty of other paths to take in order to get experience.
03-08-2012 | 01:03 PM
#155
Line Holder
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
From: A320 Right Seat
Non CFI route
I can't believe this post has lasted for 14 pages, but I did have a question about non CFI routes to building hours. I saw a couple posts on this and I agree the CFI route is the most common and a great way to build hours. I was lucky and landed a great job flying jumpers, I am in my second year and I will admit it has made me much better pilot then the 250 hr rookie.
Are pilots that don't teach looked down on in the 121 world?
I get to fly old twin turbine aircraft loaded with min fuel and packed full of jumpers off a grass stip between two corn fields 16 times a day sometimes and love every minute of it. I know I am not teaching but its still great flying exericence.
As far as the original post, there is no way in $#% I would ever put my name on something like that.
Are pilots that don't teach looked down on in the 121 world?
I get to fly old twin turbine aircraft loaded with min fuel and packed full of jumpers off a grass stip between two corn fields 16 times a day sometimes and love every minute of it. I know I am not teaching but its still great flying exericence.
As far as the original post, there is no way in $#% I would ever put my name on something like that.
03-08-2012 | 01:15 PM
#156
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,843
Likes: 1
From: FAA 'Flight Check'
I can't believe this post has lasted for 14 pages, but I did have a question about non CFI routes to building hours. I saw a couple posts on this and I agree the CFI route is the most common and a great way to build hours. I was lucky and landed a great job flying jumpers, I am in my second year and I will admit it has made me much better pilot then the 250 hr rookie.
Are pilots that don't teach looked down on in the 121 world?
I get to fly old twin turbine aircraft loaded with min fuel and packed full of jumpers off a grass stip between two corn fields 16 times a day sometimes and love every minute of it. I know I am not teaching but its still great flying exericence.
As far as the original post, there is no way in $#% I would ever put my name on something like that.
Are pilots that don't teach looked down on in the 121 world?
I get to fly old twin turbine aircraft loaded with min fuel and packed full of jumpers off a grass stip between two corn fields 16 times a day sometimes and love every minute of it. I know I am not teaching but its still great flying exericence.
As far as the original post, there is no way in $#% I would ever put my name on something like that.
Doing your type of flying (16 times day) gets repetitve obviously. You are single pilot, taking off from a grass field (uncontrolled), climbing to altitude, jumpers gone, spirling down (any other traffic?), and landing, load up again and do it again.
After so much time of that - what new *airline type* skills are you developing? One reason airlines (and I would believe most) like to see instructors is because they have experience *watching others* and usually have little problem prompting others when things go awry. Even if you are not the one with the hands on the controls - teaching, watching, and evaluating is considered good experience; though repetitve also, the old saying a million times around the pattern I'm sure. But every student brings a different set of challenges with them too. In the end - I would think (but do not know and have no experience in hiring for the airlines) that a 1,000 hrs of CFI'ing would be looked on more favorably than a 1,000 hrs of flying jumpers. In my mind though - that doesn't mean that a 1,000 hrs of CFI'ing would be better than some other type of non-CFI flying, like aerial survey for example.
USMCFLYR
03-08-2012 | 01:19 PM
#157
Bracing for Fallacies
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,543
Likes: 0
From: In favor of good things, not in favor of bad things
I can't believe this post has lasted for 14 pages, but I did have a question about non CFI routes to building hours. I saw a couple posts on this and I agree the CFI route is the most common and a great way to build hours. I was lucky and landed a great job flying jumpers, I am in my second year and I will admit it has made me much better pilot then the 250 hr rookie.
Are pilots that don't teach looked down on in the 121 world?
I get to fly old twin turbine aircraft loaded with min fuel and packed full of jumpers off a grass stip between two corn fields 16 times a day sometimes and love every minute of it. I know I am not teaching but its still great flying exericence.
As far as the original post, there is no way in $#% I would ever put my name on something like that.
Are pilots that don't teach looked down on in the 121 world?
I get to fly old twin turbine aircraft loaded with min fuel and packed full of jumpers off a grass stip between two corn fields 16 times a day sometimes and love every minute of it. I know I am not teaching but its still great flying exericence.
As far as the original post, there is no way in $#% I would ever put my name on something like that.
And for the people who don't have the patience to instruct, get over it. You are going to have to work in crew environment, so developing patience, humility, and leadership are crucial!
03-08-2012 | 03:47 PM
#159
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,422
Likes: 0
From: the correct seat
Now I wasn't sure I'd have the patience to do it, but as it turned out I did. Many of my friends don't have the patience and they absolutely HATE instructing.
Bottom line, if you don't like being a teacher, instructing is NOT for you.
03-08-2012 | 11:21 PM
#160
Line Holder
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
From: King Air Driver
I will never sign this petition, and obviously nor will anyone here. But, there are student pilots and low time pilots that realize they wont make 1500TT by August 2012 and will sign this petition without a second thought.
To the OP, majority of the pilots in here invested alot of money and time to get their certificates and rating, not just you.
To the OP, majority of the pilots in here invested alot of money and time to get their certificates and rating, not just you.
Last edited by DrangonStar45; 03-09-2012 at 02:09 AM.
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