Nope, just pointing out how ludicrous it is for one pilot group with no scope to try and call out another pilot group with no scope. The hypocrisy is amusing. I’ve said it before. Neither group has the high ground on this so why beat that drum? Instead, let’s funnel that energy into fixing it for both groups coming up.

I agree.. focus on 2020 and getting solid scope and pay bumps, among other things. If were not acquired or merged before then.

I accept your conclusion about where we need to funnel our energies, but having used a straw man argument to get there, I gotta take some points off for that

It's quite legitimate for anybody to ask "Why haven't you guys not gotten a Scope Clause in your Contract, having been around for over 80 years while EVERY other Legacy and many Majors have it? It is not legitimate however to say its hypocrisy for VXers to question that fact because we too never had Scope. We never had the time nor opportunity to get one put in place. That is the all important difference.

Apples and Oranges...

Valid point. They've certainly had plenty of chances over the last 8 decades to negotiate scope into their contract.

Yes, you're right. However, remember that Alaska was this small and unique company that mostly operated in a small and unique area of the country for the majority of its existence. Really only in the last ten years (really six) has Alaska blossomed into the airline it is today. While I wholeheartedly agree with your point re: the lack of scope, I don't think that a lot of people envisioned that Alaska Airlines would become what it is today (at least this rapidly). I'm not giving ALPA a pass on this one, but historically it is true, AS never really "needed scope" as their "gentleman's agreement" with management always worked out in the favor of both the company and the pilot group.

I'm glad to see that the majority of the pilot group is coming around and seeing the light at the impact that the lack of scope can and will have. I truly believe that a C Series platform (et al) will be introduced at AS in the next 3-5 years and the aircraft will go to QX unless the AS pilot group accepts less and/or throws in the towel in Contract 2020 negotiations. There is nothing to stop them from doing this and for a company obsessed with costs and watching its earnings and profit margins go from extremely healthy to extremely shaky in 12 months we all know this is a card they'll play.

Nope, I stand firmly by my argument that it’s total hypocrisy. You knew before you interviewed that VX did not have scope, yet, you still went. You did not know when or how long VX would be a non union shop without a contract and therefore you had no idea when, if ever, you’d get the chance to vote in scope. Yet, you still went. You can’t use time as your crutch. As it stands, you went to an airline with no scope and had no idea if or when you’d get any. You guys claim to be vets of the industry knowing how important scope is to an airline and yet you still went to one without any. If scope was on the back burner for you then, why do you now have the gumption to chastise AS pilots who have no scope. To this I say, neither of our groups can hold the moral high ground on this issue and therefore the hypocritical argument should be dead in the water. Let’s move on to things that are actually important like....getting scope

What makes you think AS management will ever give up Scope? What makes you think they care about your career and to write language to protect it? They showed their true colors during arbitration, which I’m not sure why arbitration would ever be written in a contract. Yes, a lot of people chose to go to VX, but many really didn’t have a choice at the time. VX management was also a different breed than AS management.

Albeit only work rules, they were really good on following what was written and when there was a discrepancy they actually came to the table to try to come up with an agreement to fix it. Two totally different animals. Becoming AS wasn’t a choice for the VX pilots, but that’s how this industry works sometimes.

Now, we have to find a way to fix the holes in the current AS contract and it’s going to take all of us. Let’s just see how management tries to manipulate that.

As a VX’r I gotta call you out on that one. Different animals? I think not. Make no mistake this management team and AS are very similar, they all are. DC and the rest screwed this pilot group over several times during my 6 years here. IPO comes to mind. And I disagree they came to the table willing to fix things and followed the “rule book”. Reserve rules come to mind, among many others. CSS/management was always interpreting things so that it benefited them. I agree with everything else you said .

You're "Wrong n Strong".

I understand your reflexive need to be defensive but that's OK.. We can agree to disagree...

From the start, apart from the payrate, VX offered pretty decent Scheduling and QOL provisions. Issues popped up pretty quickly however and that's why within a year of operations, I remember the discussions and eventual efforts to get a Union on property so that we could move towards getting an industry standard compensation and benefits package.

May I also remind you of the fact that no Start-up has ever started out the gate with industry standard provisions, scope included. Not FedEx, not SW, not JB, not Spirit; I could go on and on..

So it was not an anomaly nor is it a "head scratcher" that guys made the decision to go to VX without some of those provisions in place at the outset..

It is an anomaly though and certainly a "head scratcher" that after over 80 years and having a Union on property, Scope did not make its way into AS's contract.

I wouldn’t say my calling out hypocrisy is a “reflexive need to be defensive”. You have 44 posts, all in “defense” of your views. Hmmmm, is this irony or more hypocrisy??? Either way, it is absolutely ridiculous for one group of pilots that volunteered to work for a company without scope, to stand on a soap box and chastise another pilot group that works for a company without any measurable scope. The shoulda, woulda, coulda argument holds no water. The facts remain, VX had no scope when it started and it had no scope 10 years later when it ceased to exist. You say, “but yeah, we were going to get some, I was sure of it!” You didn’t, end of story. Enough of the holier then thou sh!t. The only head scratcher is why you insist to continue an argument that is based on opinions only? The facts as they stand are neither group had/has scope. I could go into the laundry list of reasons why AS pilots of past decades didn’t think they needed scope and why guys like me came here confident, after talking with friends at the company, the revolution was at hand and scope, among other things, would be voted in, but that might be construed as making excuses. Biz, I think you’re an intelligent guy, you think things through before you write and you have valid points. On this though, you’re dead wrong and I’m basing this on the FACTS. Let’s leave this bloody pulp of a horse carcass to rest and move on so we can both look back and say, “remember when we didn’t have scope? That was dumb!”