Let's say a 4 year FO wanted to move from Skywest ($41) to Compass( $40). With one seniority list the FO loses very little. Of course there is always the jeopardy of a training event, but the single seniority list enables the pilot to choose a company that is best for his/her needs. It would also motivate company management to keep its pilot group happy.

 

I get that argument. I think what was being discussed was one list between Expressjet and SkyWest.

 

This could also be done by having no seniority system at all, and all positions, transitions to different aircraft, including CA, are bid by applying, both internally and externally. Longevity pay and seniority would only come up when talking about the same position in the same type. When you are hired as an FO for an ERJ, you are an FO for an ERJ and not "counting" on any sort of automatic upgrade, ever. When the company needs people to "upgrade", they open the applications for CAs, people apply, they take the highest qualified. With type and company experience, most may come from within, but a few external CA types with the appropriate type rating may apply as well. What this would do is completely destroy the seniority system and allow the business to work like most other businesses do. In most places, not all, but most, you don't just assume one day you'll be "appointed" as a manager or the next highest position just because you have a great personality and smile and put in some time. Companies and businesses don't care how great you think you are. This also separates out the non-motivated or poor performing FOs that are not motivated to, capable of, or interested in upgrading.

If this happened, IMO, pay would have to go up to retain and experience, the most important thing, would be transferable (in other words, you don't start out as a lowly FO at company B after being a CA at company A). You apply for the position that is open. This is the worst thing about the system. You can't get at the top of your game like in most businesses and get a salary that is at least somewhat representative of your experience and qualifications when you move positions. Right now, airlines have no incentive to pay pilots for their experience, because the system locks them in back at zero every time.

 

Who says I only have to have one job at a time?

I can't imagine anyone actually living on first-year FO pay, unless you live with your parents in a very low cost-of-living area and live in domicile.

And I can't imagine doing this job and relying upon it as your only source of income. I have multiple sources of income, which took years of hard work to set up. I couldn't have gone to an airline job without that.

Anyhow, let's get this thread back on topic, which should be Skywest...not the grocery-store choices of a new-hire FO ;-)

 

No, Nevets and I have had this discussion in the past. We are referring to a single list across the regional industry. He thinks the only way to do it is with a union, but as I pointed out before the current labor laws prohibits airline unions from taking this kind of action. It does not prohibit individuals petitioning congress.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

This could also be done by having no seniority system at all, and all positions, transitions to different aircraft, including CA, are bid by applying, both internally and externally. Longevity pay and seniority would only come up when talking about the same position in the same type. When you are hired as an FO for an ERJ, you are an FO for an ERJ and not "counting" on any sort of automatic upgrade, ever. When the company needs people to "upgrade", they open the applications for CAs, people apply, they take the highest qualified. With type and company experience, most may come from within, but a few external CA types with the appropriate type rating may apply as well. What this would do is completely destroy the seniority system and allow the business to work like most other businesses do. In most places, not all, but most, you don't just assume one day you'll be "appointed" as a manager or the next highest position just because you have a great personality and smile and put in some time. Companies and businesses don't care how great you think you are. This also separates out the non-motivated or poor performing FOs that are not motivated to, capable of, or interested in upgrading.

If this happened, IMO, pay would have to go up to retain and experience, the most important thing, would be transferable (in other words, you don't start out as a lowly FO at company B after being a CA at company A). You apply for the position that is open. This is the worst thing about the system. You can't get at the top of your game like in most businesses and get a salary that is at least somewhat representative of your experience and qualifications when you move positions. Right now, airlines have no incentive to pay pilots for their experience, because the system locks them in back at zero every time.

The system you're suggesting exists and probably works fine for a corporate flight department. They are generally a small group of pilots and have collateral duties which separate them out. This business (airlines) is like no other business. The model you are suggesting will not work here. We have a vast number of individual who predominantly have the same skill set. We are all ATPs.
What would the metric for promotion be? If the metric is experience, then generally speaking that equates to seniority. If the metric is competency, then how do you define it? Shoots a single engine ILS to minimums within ATP standards? We all do that. Shows up to work on time? You will not last at an airline if you are not reliable. Maintains a high state of physical readiness? Most of us have a 1st Class Medical. Looks great in uniform? Maybe you can weed a few applicants out here , but for the most part I think pilots are squared away. Who would evaluate the pilots on their performance? Who would write the evaluations? The Chief Pilot in SLC has over 300 pilots that report to him. How is going to know which FO is ready for upgrade? I think this is why the current seniority based metric works tremendously well.

To your second point, I do not believe MOST pilots assume that just because they have the seniority number they are entitled to the left seat. IMO we recognize that the seniority number makes the opportunity for upgrade available, but it still has to be earned. Earned through study, discipline, experience, and of course testing. There are no gimmes in this industry. We work for everything.

We are saying some of the same things. A pilot should not have to start at pay level 0 because he chose to move to a better (subjective) company. However, I don't think that the pilot who was just about to upgrade should be penalized because that pilot with the higher seniority made a lateral move. The pilot who moved goes to the bottom of the list for the purpose of upgrade. That is the consequence of his decision to move.

 

Seriously?

This is not a joke?

How would you gauge someone for an upgrade? Um, just what I said before, you open it up to applications, HR reviews them, person gets an interview, goes through a sim, is graded and valued based on many things, a board makes a selection. You think this is impossible? It works for all sorts of skilled labor, like Doctors, etc. I'm not talking about corporate flight departments, I'm talking about the rest of the business world, literally.

Based on what you just said above, pilots SHOULD start out at zero each and ever time, because they have no skills that can be measured, no background, no ability to "tell the story", no way to improve themselves inside and outside of work, no extra leadership experience, etc. You're just giving reasons to sit on your rear end and expect the world to come to you because you are such a great person. Do you not see you are shooting yourself in the foot?

Like I said, this all works fine with most businesses, but to "break" the cycle and the things that you feel you are owed, the eventual or mythical "upgrade" or start out at the next airline with decent pay, you have to give them a reason to do it.

 

You are inferring a lot and yes I'm serious. The economy of scale is too large to fairly promote based on a resume, much less let some boob from HR determine whether or not a pilot applicant gets a shot at upgrade.

The way you laid it out is almost precisely how it works, except there is no HR interview involved and there should not be. The efficacy of pilot should be determined by other pilots. Upgrade candidates currently go through a sim,are graded and valued based on many things, an instructor makes a determination: Pass/Fail.

In your world, for the sake of simplicity, let's say 2 pilots are vying for the upgrade. Each has 5000 TT in type. Each has a BS in Basket-weaving. Each has an equal amount of volunteer time. One guy smiles nice and looks good in a suit, the other guy smells bad and looks like a Sh!te sandwich. The guy who smiles nice and looks good gets the job. Same scenario you alluded to before.

All that aside, I think your premise is flawed. If you consider flying 85 to 95 hours a month with minimum time off in between sitting on your rear end, then you must have some high standards. There are many who go the extra mile with volunteer work, Union Work (SAPA for SKYW), Graduate Degrees, etc. Not so they can be competitive for an upgrade, but so they can get hired at a Major. For most of us, that's what this is all about.

Combine the list

I guess we could always have upgrade selection boards based on Fitness Reports. We'd all be outstanding or 5s (not sure how you do it in the Air Force) and promotions would be based on who the guy was with the most experience.

 

Where the major airline does the same thing to you if you have to "restart" at another major. You're betting on the major being around forever, like TWA, etc. The days are long gone of counting on the pension to carry you after 20 years, assuming you have that long left when you even get to a major. You are correct though, by keeping the goal "get to a major", you allow the entire industry to walk up and down all over you and hold that as leverage.

The question remains, if your major takes a dump and you are a 777 CA, should you have to start over again at another major at the bottom? Not saying you are owed anything, but if major B just happens to be looking for 777 CAs, you are qualified, have lots of hours, seems like it would make sense you could apply for that (in the normal business world). If the only "need" is for CA on a particular aircraft, maybe you can or can't get it, depending on your experience. May not be a good idea if what you've flown is radically different and there are more qualified candidates, etc.

The interview thing isn't complicated (like AT&T and kids around a table). Same or similar process for initial hiring. Grade it objectively based on points if you like, 5 points for graduate degree, 5 points for every 10K of time, IDK, it could easily be done though. Sitting around and saying it can't possible work when it works just fine for the rest of the world sounds a little ridiculous, not to mention it worked just fine when you hired in. Plenty of sims are capable of objectively "grading" events based on how many altitude deviations, how close you meet tolerances, etc, you know, "pilot stuff". I've used them.

It's amazing the mountains that have been erected by the pilot groups and how they've told themselves over and over they are the greatest mountains ever and now that management has figured out how to manipulate them in every way possible, those pilots are unwilling to abandon them.

Seniority has a purpose, longevity pay in a specific job classification/grade, bidding for work assignments in the same, etc, but nearly every other industry, skilled and unskilled, does not use a seniority system for promotion.

Seriously, you could also make the same "the world is not fair" arguments for any other industry, that you have much more experience, are a better person, dressed better, etc, but HR departments have come a long way, they are pretty efficient and have to be very objective, or face lawsuits and litigation.

 

<Facebiter note--I disregarded every post over two sentences on this page.>

So what's the haps with the Surface? Isn't the Surface 2 outdated, especially by the time they hand 'em out?