Nevets

Has it occurred to anyone that maybe the SAPA guys are just not able to deliver because they have no leverage?




You can think of ANYONE that isn't in a union as independent contractors. Those people negotiate their one wages and benefits. And they do it on a regular basis to get raises. This isn't an issue about contractors. This is simply having a real say when management wants to implement their next new idea.

You have don't have a whole lot of stuff that many regionals used to have and that a few still have (that you should have). Things like higher vacation and sick accrual, 12 min days off, better matching funds, a B find, lower insurance cost sharing, no fault paid fatigue policy, unlimited sick calls with doctors note, unlimited commuter policy, long term disability that pays out until age 65, on the job injury pay bank, no ACARS notification, no check in requirement, no phone liability whatsoever on a trip, reserve rules: automatic release to days off after trip, no back to back ready reserve, no more than 6 ready reserve assignments per month, 4 hours max (4 hours of pay) ready reserve, etc, etc.



Unions are only as good as the pilot group they represent. So if you think your pilot group would work out just like at other regionals, then you may have a point.


It is very rare indeed. They seem to be very tight lipped. It's like they are afraid to say something they aren't supposed to.


I would imagine that the same may be true of your management if they actually had to deal with a real, transparent, accountable grievance system which had a neutral third party arbitrate the results. If management doesn't want to deal with it, they just drag it out knowing they can't just make it go away.

As for bad union behavior, unfortunately that's a human race issue. Like I said above, the union is only as good as its members. If you vote in unethical humans to lead the union, you may not like their decisions. Which takes us back to the union only being as strong as its members, meaning the pilot group as a whole.

With a union, you get a say of how flexible you want to be with your work rules. Do you want to be EFB reflowable in order to increase flexibility? I don't know. But at least you get a say. And if you decide you do want to be that flexible, you get to negotiate implementation, timeline, the extent of flexibility you want to give, or anything you want in return for it. Right now, you have no recourse.


Unfortunately, each MEC makes decisions independently of one another. Which is why I keep Sauk g that a union is only as strong as its members. Do you have a weak pilot group? Then you ma end up with a weak union.

Not all groups are giving concessions. Some are keeping their good contract (ASA/xjt, AWAC, horizon), and some are even getting improvements (CMT). I put endeavor in a different t class since they were in bankruptcy and dealing with a whole different animal. But they ended up better than what it would've been if they were non-union.

Again, a union is only as good as its members. If you replace the PSA or PDT pilots with the ASA/xjt pilots, we would've voted down concessions.




I know that at xjt the whipsaw hangs over our heads and is used to leverage us into a worse bargaining environment. I'm sure it's a popular tactic used at all the other regionals. People see all the N #s of regional aircraft that used to belong to other regionals on Skywest paint. I don't see that as a coincidence.

Crazy Canuck

I completely agree with this! And I don't really blame SAPA itself for this issue, especially since they were created by SkyWest.

Now, while I don't mind eating a bit of Crow I ask this Nevets: What can a union offer that SAPA can't? Other than "enforceable" contract language? How is that working out for other regionals? I feel ALPA et al have proved that they cannot do a good job with any of the leverage they had with other airlines. Not to mention voting in a union will not go over well with management (not that our job is to please them per se, but all of a sudden what reservedness they have and treat us with will be gone). Hence why I do not support an official union any more than SAPA.

Squallrider

Do you really believe you have more leverage because you are unionized? Don't say you don't because of SkyWest, because I guarantee you that Envoy isn't claiming they don't have leverage because of us, they (and rightfully so) blame other regionals for new TAs. Was our last agreement revolutionary? Absolutely not, but it wasn't concessionary.

As far as I am aware we do have a minimum amount of days off, I've never heard of anyone being written up for commuting issue (thats within my circle of people Ive interacted with obviously), we aren't required to pick up our phone during a trip, line holders are released directly after a trip, reserve may or may not have ready added to the end depending on the day up to the point they would originally be released at anyway, therefor its the same work as if they wouldn't have been called in at the very most. As far as I am aware we aren't held to ACARS notifications and notification by EFB is something SAPA for some reason decided to approach.

Like you said we have a lot of things that other regionals don't have, and we don't have things that some do, does anyone have the perfect combination of everything? No.

ALPA represents mainline, that is a given, larger pilot group population at higher income levels creates greater dues.

Grievances are more often than not dragged out, because in the end as a union member you have no bite, you have nothing that will force the company to do (in a timely manner) what it does not wish to do.

How is that keeping your hold contract working out for ExpressJet/ASA, Horizon, AWAC? As far as Im aware Expressjet is losing aircraft in the 3 figure area, and AWACs contract with its sole source of flying has not been extended. Don't get me wrong, I do believe your contracts have pluses, and I believe everyone should be fairly compensated for everything that goes into this career, but I do believe that at the end of the day you have to be competitive and you cannot be with contracts that have substantial costs in them that are way higher than what the market is dictating, and what the market is dictating has been and forever will be undermined by groups seeking to gain flying, which is everyone. Most pilots think short term, get my time and move on, they even take a hit in pay (horizontal move) to gain a potentially quicker upgrade and hope to move to mainline. I commend Envoy and Expressjet/ASA for standing the line, I just don't think burning the company down will pay mortgages and everything else. Where does the continuous downward spiral end without people holding the line? Nowhere, thats why its continuous, because someone will always stab someone in the back. Some may say well I will move on to mainline before the doors close...what if you don't? First year pay at Skywest is $24 a hour, Compass is around $28 (?), does that pay the bills for you? Probably not. Yes, everyone should have a backup plan but if you make little $$ chances are you aren't investing in a income property or starting a side business.

Is Skywest airlines the only place you see tail numbers from other regionals? Im sure TSA has some Expressjet ones, Expressjet has Comair and thats just regionals that have managed to survive, other tail numbers you can't even recognize anymore unless you've been around awhile because they are gone. So to say because SkyWest isn't union we end up with other peoples flying is a stupid statement, especially considering that SkyWest is known to be one of the most, if not the most expensive regionals in the RFP process. We used to have an economies of scale that countered the senior pilot group, but that doesn't help on a new fleet type. We continue to have one of the most senior pilot groups (maybe behind Envoy) and do not have pay caps like many other do. So in my opinion blaming us for having aircraft from other companies cannot be attributed to lack of union. Mainline doesn't pay SkyWest more because they want to, they did it in the past because we were flexible because we had the capital and flexibility to provide what was asked in a very timely manner, lift thats pricier is better than cancellations and/or no lift.

Every regional will now and forever be whipsawed against each other, thats what happens when you are a contract based business, you are competing against everyone else and everyone is trying to get ahead of their competitors, that is the reality you are faced with. Only solution is a nationwide list or a regional wide union that everyone is a part of that dictates the cost of each year pilot. Chances of that happening? 0. Because someone will always undermine another pilot group to get ahead. Therefore, as I have said many times, GET YOUR TIME AND MOVE ON. A business model that is based on purely cost with few clients/partners available will always result in cost cutting, and a big part of cost cutting when you don't own aircraft and are essentially a staffing company is pilot pay and benefits.

SkyWest is a great company to work for, we aren't perfect, but no company is, even if you're a senior captain flying whatever you want to fly for whatever mainline/cargo you want to work for, you will complain about something and you will never feel fairly treated in every single aspect, that is reality.

To people looking at entering the regionals, look at the pros and cons of every company to the best of your ability and make a decision that will improve your Quality of life (QOL), bases and pay lead to better QOL. SkyWest offers very competitive pay and more bases than most (around 15 I believe), moral is good (have a current policy on reflow that hasn't passed yet thats being worked on, watch that space) and our upgrade time is about 4 years. The company is continuously producing profits and evolving the expansion of our fleet types. Theres quicker upgrades out there if you got in at the right time, personally I don't believe anyone should chase a upgrade as that window usually comes and goes.

Get your time and get out!

skypilot35

I think you've made some very salient points Squallrider. Specifically, the fact that regional airlines are contractors and subject to the whims of Delta, United, and American.

Union or not, we as a regional pilot group have no say in the contracts given to our airline. If one pilot group will not capitulate to the demands of the Big 3, the flying will be delivered elsewhere and the finger pointing will begin anew.

As you suggested the ONLY way this side of the industry gets fixed is with one list, one voice, one united group. However, we are prohibited / inhibited by the Railway Labor Act of 1926 amended 1936 (The Railway Labor Act Simplified). If you have the time this is good insight as to why we are always mired in discussions and contract negotiations. It is also why we will never be able to organize as one group. The cards are stacked in management's favor, both regional and mainline.

The numbers are starting to turn in our favor. I've heard the "rumor" many times that Skywest is having to turn down additional flying because they do not have the bodies to staff it. I would imagine they are not the only ones. This summer is going to be incredibly difficult for the regionals. The end of the year will be worse when all the Captains have timed out.

I am not sure how it is going to be corrected. The wave of bodies leaving to the majors is impressive. My seniority number has gone up 45 spots in 20 days. I think that trend is projected to continue if not increase. I hope so.

There has been a question I've had for awhile Nevets. How much should a Captain and FO at a regional be paid? What is the magic number that makes you say, "Yeah that'll work."? I'm not being malicious here and I understand that there is more to a work agreement than the hourly rate, but I'm curious.

SP35

skypilot35

^^^Agreed my brother....that's twice

PerpetualFlyer

Holy wall of text, Batman. In other news, most junior captain now a Feb 28, 2011 hire.

ClickClickBoom

You show your newness, new guy. The sum of the stuff SKYW has taken by fiat is, astonishing, staggering really. Now take a snapshot of your work life, today. When the EFB arrives and you have solved your first "blue screen of death" situation, wait till the first irregular ops day and the 19 year old Dixie college dropout decides that your esteemed services are needed on the other side of the country, due to her using all the reserves to sit at airport Ready Reserve, and you had plans to sleep in your bid hotel. To no avail, Reflow via EFB means you can't even ask for/suggest a different solution via the phone. This will be your introduction to the SKYW way of yanking bits of your life out of your hands. This has been going on since the last Union drive failed, because large amounts of new/newer guys didn't want to rock the boat and affect their upgrades. This sad sad record plays over and over and without a majority intervention, it keeps playing. The irony is SKYW has become the place to avoid, fast cash and upgrades elsewhere are ne new currency to attract new suckers. Remember so you too can lament the "good old days at SKYW, when_______wasnt in effect"

Paid2fly

Worst possible? I suggest "David1968" !









P.S.

The majors aren't giving out contracts for flying because an airline is union or non-union. Hint, look at all the UNION airlines that have been awarded new flying that either took concessions to get it, or already at the bottom of the barrel. All those union companies have worse pay and benefits than the company you're targeting.

disillusioned

Truly not picking on you or trying to call you out. But do you really believe your statement above? I felt it was concessionary when we voted it in, but hindsight now shows me that it was one of the worse things we could do.

I'll allow you to counter on the gains we realized, while I will play the devils advocate and point out which parts of our agreement (which I like that you use that word instead of contract) that I felt were lacking.

Training seat locks - Huge cost savings for company. Nothing gained for the pilots
1 year contract - Yeah that worked out awesome for us. I'm sure we will get retro pay. Penalties should have been included for not reaching agreement at the end of the year contract. We were played hard with this one.
E175 rate - Call this a wash. Not enough money for the seats, but soft time paid at this rate. So we gained something back for the horrible BHO override that we got screwed with years ago.
EMB raise - How can I forget this. We FINALLY paid the Bro guys. Please don't tell me that you think the company didn't know this plane was going away. If there was ever a nail in the coffin for the 120, the pay raise was it.
COLA - Oh wait, there wasn't a COLA.
2 Golden Days - Oh yes, 2 more unpaid days that will now screw my bid up because I still have to have 88 hours awarded in PBS. I guess it does make it so I can at least get 11 days off in a month.

Sorry I don't feel the uniform money or passport is worth much. We lost that money with our 1%. I'd love to hear the gains you felt we made, but in my book our agreement was concessionary.

Squallrider

True those point towards concessionary, but when I look at what was passing around the same time I think we got out at about breakeven. Our hourly rate which is very important to me is still higher than most and we aren't capped to 4 year FO pay or 12 year CA pay like other places.

We def had the wool over our eyes if we knew what the company's plan was for the EMB, we thought we were helping the EMB guys out meanwhile that was just the little nudge of pilots they needed to pass it.

It could def have been a lot worse.