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Originally Posted by Duesenflieger
(Post 2375756)
Are you saying that everyone who wants to move on, can in two to three years? Because that is completely untrue. Legacy jobs will always be competitive, and one little tiny hiccup in the economy will reverse the demand for pilots at mainline. The retirements are big, but they span a timeframe composed of twenty years.... Not all of us will be winners.
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Originally Posted by Voski
(Post 2375475)
I'm an Army pilot that will be leaving active service in a little more than a year for the airlines. Case-in-point, I was and still am attracted to SkyWest because of their reputation and the fact that they seem like they're one of the few regionals that have a future in the industry.
However, reputation, base options, and owning your own airplanes can only get you so far in this hiring environment when you've got companies like Endeavor, Envoy, PSA, and Piedmont all making compelling options. I can make roughly twice as much income my first two years at one of the wholly-owned carriers to ease the pay cut of leaving the military and ease the burden of first officer pay scales. Plus, a company like PSA has SAP as a line holder meaning preferential scheduling; my friends at SkyWest keep telling me how they're maxed out. Even though the airlines with flow-through agreements are more or less a gimmick in my book, it's still an insurance policy that tips the already unbalanced scales even further away from SkyWest. Right now, it's a no-brainer move for my family. I'm hoping SkyWest can offer more incentives to attract more pilots, but a differential pay of ~$40,000+ over two years by going elsewhere is a deal breaker. |
Originally Posted by hawk21
(Post 2375634)
I can personally tell you from my perspective (tons of friends still in flight school, finishing up hours instructing, etc) that SkyWest is starting to lose its draw. Everyone is flooding to Envoy for the bonuses and flow. Yes we're filling classes now but at this rate that's gonna start trickling down.
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Originally Posted by JKSees
(Post 2375657)
Funny how just a few pages back I essentially made this same point about a pending retention problem if they don't make some changes. AND GOT HAMMERED FOR IT. My class of new FO's was looking at their minimum wage pay check while sitting reserve in ORD, away from home, in a bucket +24 over (i.e your never gonna get called), with Crew Support unwilling to let them sit reserve in LAX/SFO/SEA with -reserves. So lets see, minimum wage, not flying (i.e. not making any progress towards getting out of here), and sitting away from home with NO reason to be doing so. The word will get out eventually.
Sorry bud, try again. If you wanted a line and to do the grind you'd be in Detroit right now on the CRJ flying 90hrs a month just like the rest of the guys on the grind. You just came into here with your entitlement saying you wanna go to Horizon. Good luck with your upgrade times. Let me just warn you to DO YOUR RESEARCH. Otherwise you will get hammered....again. And minimum wage? Jesus man. Seriously? |
Originally Posted by Voski
(Post 2375475)
I'm an Army pilot that will be leaving active service in a little more than a year for the airlines. Case-in-point, I was and still am attracted to SkyWest because of their reputation and the fact that they seem like they're one of the few regionals that have a future in the industry.
However, reputation, base options, and owning your own airplanes can only get you so far in this hiring environment when you've got companies like Endeavor, Envoy, PSA, and Piedmont all making compelling options. I can make roughly twice as much income my first two years at one of the wholly-owned carriers to ease the pay cut of leaving the military and ease the burden of first officer pay scales. Plus, a company like PSA has SAP as a line holder meaning preferential scheduling; my friends at SkyWest keep telling me how they're maxed out. Even though the airlines with flow-through agreements are more or less a gimmick in my book, it's still an insurance policy that tips the already unbalanced scales even further away from SkyWest. Right now, it's a no-brainer move for my family. I'm hoping SkyWest can offer more incentives to attract more pilots, but a differential pay of ~$40,000+ over two years by going elsewhere is a deal breaker. |
Originally Posted by invalidPairing
(Post 2375740)
If you're really considering Envoy, have a chat with someone that has been there a few years. Envoy pilots have arguably the worst relationship with management compared to any pilot group right now. Look at the volatility of their bases and how they're treated by management.
Having a good relationship with management doesn't pay the bills. Money in your pocket does. |
Originally Posted by hawk21
(Post 2375987)
Having a good relationship with management doesn't pay the bills. Money in your pocket does.
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Here's a brief history lesson of "money paying the bills" at Envoy.
Early 2011 - American Eagle is taking delivery of 27 CRJ 700s. New hires are totaling 40-50 per month. Aug 2011 - Captain upgrade time drops from almost 10 years in 2010 to 4. If everything stayed the same, it would drop to around 3 in just under a year. Sep 2011 - American Eagle has over 3400 pilots on its seniority list. Oct 2011 - AMR files for bankruptcy. Hiring immediately stops and 76 new hires are furloughed. Apr 2012 - American Eagle closes SJU base. May 2012 – American Eagle pilots begin bankruptcy negotiations for a new concessionary contract that would include a new sweet fleet plan. Aug 2012 - AA and US Airways begin talks Sep 2012 - American Eagle closes LAX base Sep 2012 - SkyWest given contract to operate 23 CRJ-200s out of LAX Oct 2012 – American Eagle pilots approve concessionary bankruptcy contract with the sweet fleet plan language removed and changed to a gentleman’s agreement Nov 2012 – 3,141 pilots on envoy seniority list Jan 2013 - Republic granted 47 EMB 175s with an additional 47 options. Envoy pilots receive 0 aircraft in exchange for their bankruptcy concessions Feb 2013 - AA and US Airways begin formal merger Feb 2013 - ExpresJet begins operating CRJs from DFW May 2013 - 2,994 pilots on American Eagle seniority list July 2013 - Pedro Fabregas appointed president of American Eagle July 2013 – American Eagle’s pilot union rejects a B-Scale proposal as directed by ALPA policy. Management specifically references Endeavor's lower costs as the reason for additional concession (See Jan 2015) Sep 2013 - Pilots at PSA, supported by ALPA, approve industry bottom contract that includes a B-Scale to ensure they receive American Eagle aircraft Dec 2013 - AA and US Airways merge and American Airlines exits bankruptcy Dec 2013 - AA orders 30 CRJ 900 for PSA with option for 40 more Dec 2013 - AA orders 60 EMB 175s with options for 90 more. These orders are then used to threaten American Eagle pilots Dec 2013 – Just 10 days after exiting bankruptcy management returns for additional concessions to honor the sweet fleet plan. Dec 2013 – 2,778 pilots on American Eagle seniority list Jan 2014 - American Eagle renamed envoy air Mar 2014 - (12:00) envoy pilots reject a second attempt at another concessionary contract Mar 2014 - (12:02) envoy pilots notified that they would not fly Chautauqua ORD flying when ORD VP drags new SkyWest jet out and parks it in front of ORD crew room Apr 2014 -2,604 pilots on envoy seniority list May 2014 - Under armed guard PSA’s new CRJ 900 is unveiled……in DFW May 2014 - Mesa awarded 6 CRJ-900’s without concessionary demands Jun 2014 - Compass awarded 20 EMB 175s without concessionary demands Sep 2014 - envoy pilots notified that AA will transfer all 47 of its CRJ 700s to PSA Oct 2014 - envoy begins to close MIA crew base Nov 2014 - Mesa begins DFW operations and will become the largest operator of regional jets in DFW Nov 2014 - envoy pilots notified that 50 jets will be transferred from envoy airlines to help solve staffing. 20 to Piedmont, 15 to TSA and 15 to ExpressJet. Oddly, this move backfires and attrition sky rockets Dec 2014 - (12:00 PM) envoy pilots accept concessionary contract with the promise of 40 EMB 175s and 90 options. Dec 2014 - (2:00 PM) AA awards employees 4% raises, not to include envoy pilots Jan 2015 - 2,370 pilots on envoy seniority list Jan 2015 - Endeavor pilots receive $80,000 retention bonus (See July 2013) Feb 2015 - PSA given 24 additional CRJ-900 options, reducing envoy’s promised options by 24. Feb 2015 - Mesa orders seven additional CRJ 900s, reducing envoy’s promised options by an additional 7. The agreement also includes an undisclosed number of options to purchase additional CRJ900 aircraft that would also reduce envoy’s promised options even further. Feb 2015 - Flow through pilots are notified that the flow through has been temporarily stopped Feb 2015 - envoy pilots notified that the company will close its NY EMB base with the CRJ base to follow. Feb 2015 - Compass begins flying EMB-175s from American Eagle's old LAX base Since then Envoy has given away more flying, much of which has gone to SkyWest. ***Giving credit where it's due. I found this information here: https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/r...ter-years.html |
Originally Posted by invalidPairing
(Post 2376093)
Here's a brief history lesson of "money paying the bills" at Envoy.
Early 2011 - American Eagle is taking delivery of 27 CRJ 700s. New hires are totaling 40-50 per month. Aug 2011 - Captain upgrade time drops from almost 10 years in 2010 to 4. If everything stayed the same, it would drop to around 3 in just under a year. Sep 2011 - American Eagle has over 3400 pilots on its seniority list. Oct 2011 - AMR files for bankruptcy. Hiring immediately stops and 76 new hires are furloughed. Apr 2012 - American Eagle closes SJU base. May 2012 – American Eagle pilots begin bankruptcy negotiations for a new concessionary contract that would include a new sweet fleet plan. Aug 2012 - AA and US Airways begin talks Sep 2012 - American Eagle closes LAX base Sep 2012 - SkyWest given contract to operate 23 CRJ-200s out of LAX Oct 2012 – American Eagle pilots approve concessionary bankruptcy contract with the sweet fleet plan language removed and changed to a gentleman’s agreement Nov 2012 – 3,141 pilots on envoy seniority list Jan 2013 - Republic granted 47 EMB 175s with an additional 47 options. Envoy pilots receive 0 aircraft in exchange for their bankruptcy concessions Feb 2013 - AA and US Airways begin formal merger Feb 2013 - ExpresJet begins operating CRJs from DFW May 2013 - 2,994 pilots on American Eagle seniority list July 2013 - Pedro Fabregas appointed president of American Eagle July 2013 – American Eagle’s pilot union rejects a B-Scale proposal as directed by ALPA policy. Management specifically references Endeavor's lower costs as the reason for additional concession (See Jan 2015) Sep 2013 - Pilots at PSA, supported by ALPA, approve industry bottom contract that includes a B-Scale to ensure they receive American Eagle aircraft Dec 2013 - AA and US Airways merge and American Airlines exits bankruptcy Dec 2013 - AA orders 30 CRJ 900 for PSA with option for 40 more Dec 2013 - AA orders 60 EMB 175s with options for 90 more. These orders are then used to threaten American Eagle pilots Dec 2013 – Just 10 days after exiting bankruptcy management returns for additional concessions to honor the sweet fleet plan. Dec 2013 – 2,778 pilots on American Eagle seniority list Jan 2014 - American Eagle renamed envoy air Mar 2014 - (12:00) envoy pilots reject a second attempt at another concessionary contract Mar 2014 - (12:02) envoy pilots notified that they would not fly Chautauqua ORD flying when ORD VP drags new SkyWest jet out and parks it in front of ORD crew room Apr 2014 -2,604 pilots on envoy seniority list May 2014 - Under armed guard PSA’s new CRJ 900 is unveiled……in DFW May 2014 - Mesa awarded 6 CRJ-900’s without concessionary demands Jun 2014 - Compass awarded 20 EMB 175s without concessionary demands Sep 2014 - envoy pilots notified that AA will transfer all 47 of its CRJ 700s to PSA Oct 2014 - envoy begins to close MIA crew base Nov 2014 - Mesa begins DFW operations and will become the largest operator of regional jets in DFW Nov 2014 - envoy pilots notified that 50 jets will be transferred from envoy airlines to help solve staffing. 20 to Piedmont, 15 to TSA and 15 to ExpressJet. Oddly, this move backfires and attrition sky rockets Dec 2014 - (12:00 PM) envoy pilots accept concessionary contract with the promise of 40 EMB 175s and 90 options. Dec 2014 - (2:00 PM) AA awards employees 4% raises, not to include envoy pilots Jan 2015 - 2,370 pilots on envoy seniority list Jan 2015 - Endeavor pilots receive $80,000 retention bonus (See July 2013) Feb 2015 - PSA given 24 additional CRJ-900 options, reducing envoy’s promised options by 24. Feb 2015 - Mesa orders seven additional CRJ 900s, reducing envoy’s promised options by an additional 7. The agreement also includes an undisclosed number of options to purchase additional CRJ900 aircraft that would also reduce envoy’s promised options even further. Feb 2015 - Flow through pilots are notified that the flow through has been temporarily stopped Feb 2015 - envoy pilots notified that the company will close its NY EMB base with the CRJ base to follow. Feb 2015 - Compass begins flying EMB-175s from American Eagle's old LAX base Since then Envoy has given away more flying, much of which has gone to SkyWest. ***Giving credit where it's due. I found this information here: https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/r...ter-years.html |
Originally Posted by CBreezy
(Post 2376108)
Since 2015, 2 years ago, they have reopened MIA and NYC and the flow remains strong.
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