Originally Posted by Big E 757

Well said.

First of all, despite the one guy who thinks you guys should be worrying about the rest of the industry first, I think this is a huge leap forward for you all. The LTD alone is huge. Then the pay rates, while not legacy rates, is pretty close by the 3rd and 4th years. Scope protection, the rigs...you don’t have any reason to apologize.

Your obligation is to yourself and your family first, then your pilot group. The rest of us can fend for our families and pilot groups. It’s a great environment right now but we all know a downturn is only as far away as a crazy North Korean dictator’s next missile test.

This AIP is a pretty big leap from where you are and the $56 Million dollar questions are:
1. Can you do better if you vote it down, without giving the NMB a corranary event?
2. Will it be enough to offset the time value of money and/or the risk of losing your medical before a better contract is signed?
3. Will that next AIP/TA be completed before the next downturn.

I hated the TVM arguments when we (DAL) were voting on our TA1 in 2016. I’m not trying to sway anyone’s opinion, just sharing my own. I voted against TA1 and for TA2. We were helped by United’s two year extension in Our second TA because they got substantial raises just for extending 2 years. The American pilots have been given several contract improvements just because their management wants to keep the peace. We’ve all benefitted from the heavy lifting of others.

The one thing that could really help you guys down the road in this contract would be a me too clause, even if it’s just with Frontier and JetBlue. That might help you keep pulling your rates up when they get new contracts. Yours will help them, and it will also help you guys keep pace over the next few years.

Good luck with your decisions, you’ll have a lot to consider over the coming weeks. And congratulations.

Originally Posted by Qotsaautopilot

To the other airline guys:

No excuses, this does not help pattern bargaining and is an embarrassment.

What we don’t have that you don’t know is good scope. Any and ALL future growth can be codeshared out to Frontier, WoW (old ceo is on the board), Norwegian, etc. you wanted to know who does it cheaper than us; they all do. this AIP reigns that in, details unknown. That is a big deal though.

Also, our current LTD only pays for two years not til 65. Right now I’d get about $7k taxable for two years then- bubkus. This AIP removes that risk from my family immediately not later. Call it fear if you want but our medicals are so fragile.

Retirement is a massive improvement with a DC. We have a 9% match right now and under no circumstances is the company going to ever give me more than $18.5k. Now it’s a percentage of everything we make with no personal contribution required and if our top earners are hitting the combined personal and company contribution ($53k I think) they are getting the overage in cash. Spirits last offer had them keeping the overage for themselves. Did I want industry standard 16% at dos? Yes! Southwest didn’t even get that and the DC was a big reason they voted down their first deal as would I if we weren’t getting it. This is a huge improvement.

Pbs, the majority of the pilots said they were willing to go to pbs to get a deal. Well here it is and many details unknown. The question is, is it enough for pbs because there so far are not many glaringly poor details that we didn’t already know about and some better than expected (we pick the vendor and vacation credit)

So if we vote it down it’s basically for more pay. So I lose $70k from a no vote to passing the next offer (both southwest and Delta waited about a year and they had other major issues for a no vote besides just pay). To make up that $70k lost I have to make $16 more an hour in the next offer just to break even. So I need at least $30/hr more to make it worth it and the whole time I have to carry that scope and LTD risk you guys at other carriers don’t have to shoulder while you wait. Also, while waiting I’m pushing out my next amendable date from 2023 to 2024 just to start this mess again.

So the question is do I think I can get $30/hr more a year from now? Do I want to push out my amendable date another year, and can I handle my massive scope and medical risk in that time and hope it doesn’t bite me.

I don’t think I can get another $30 in a year from these crooks, I don’t trust them not to codeshare, I absolutely don’t want to take the massive medical risk, and I don’t want to push out my amendable date another year.

Do I wish it was better? You're damn right! Do I think the NC got the best deal they could considering the NMB seem to be negotiating with the company? Yes.

Obviously the AIP is just bullet points so we need to see the full text but you can see we got some huge things in this that make waiting for probably minimally more pay difficult. Things that you guys already have at other airlines.

Originally Posted by hilltopflyer

Average daily credit is terrible. So many island trips that are 10 hour 3 days. If it was a min day. It would be a 15 hour 3 day with a 30 hour layover at the beach. It would probably go senior.

Originally Posted by Qotsaautopilot

To the other airline guys:

No excuses, this does not help pattern bargaining and is an embarrassment.

What we don’t have that you don’t know is good scope. Any and ALL future growth can be codeshared out to Frontier, WoW (old ceo is on the board), Norwegian, etc. you wanted to know who does it cheaper than us; they all do. this AIP reigns that in, details unknown. That is a big deal though.

Also, our current LTD only pays for two years not til 65. Right now I’d get about $7k taxable for two years then- bubkus. This AIP removes that risk from my family immediately not later. Call it fear if you want but our medicals are so fragile.

Retirement is a massive improvement with a DC. We have a 9% match right now and under no circumstances is the company going to ever give me more than $18.5k. Now it’s a percentage of everything we make with no personal contribution required and if our top earners are hitting the combined personal and company contribution ($53k I think) they are getting the overage in cash. Spirits last offer had them keeping the overage for themselves. Did I want industry standard 16% at dos? Yes! Southwest didn’t even get that and the DC was a big reason they voted down their first deal as would I if we weren’t getting it. This is a huge improvement.

Pbs, the majority of the pilots said they were willing to go to pbs to get a deal. Well here it is and many details unknown. The question is, is it enough for pbs because there so far are not many glaringly poor details that we didn’t already know about and some better than expected (we pick the vendor and vacation credit)

So if we vote it down it’s basically for more pay. So I lose $70k from a no vote to passing the next offer (both southwest and Delta waited about a year and they had other major issues for a no vote besides just pay). To make up that $70k lost I have to make $16 more an hour in the next offer just to break even. So I need at least $30/hr more to make it worth it and the whole time I have to carry that scope and LTD risk you guys at other carriers don’t have to shoulder while you wait. Also, while waiting I’m pushing out my next amendable date from 2023 to 2024 just to start this mess again.

So the question is do I think I can get $30/hr more a year from now? Do I want to push out my amendable date another year, and can I handle my massive scope and medical risk in that time and hope it doesn’t bite me.

I don’t think I can get another $30 in a year from these crooks, I don’t trust them not to codeshare, I absolutely don’t want to take the massive medical risk, and I don’t want to push out my amendable date another year.

Do I wish it was better? You're damn right! Do I think the NC got the best deal they could considering the NMB seem to be negotiating with the company? Yes.

Obviously the AIP is just bullet points so we need to see the full text but you can see we got some huge things in this that make waiting for probably minimally more pay difficult. Things that you guys already have at other airlines.

Originally Posted by Qotsaautopilot

To the other airline guys:

No excuses, this does not help pattern bargaining and is an embarrassment.

What we don’t have that you don’t know is good scope. Any and ALL future growth can be codeshared out to Frontier, WoW (old ceo is on the board), Norwegian, etc. you wanted to know who does it cheaper than us; they all do. this AIP reigns that in, details unknown. That is a big deal though.

Also, our current LTD only pays for two years not til 65. Right now I’d get about $7k taxable for two years then- bubkus. This AIP removes that risk from my family immediately not later. Call it fear if you want but our medicals are so fragile.

Retirement is a massive improvement with a DC. We have a 9% match right now and under no circumstances is the company going to ever give me more than $18.5k. Now it’s a percentage of everything we make with no personal contribution required and if our top earners are hitting the combined personal and company contribution ($53k I think) they are getting the overage in cash. Spirits last offer had them keeping the overage for themselves. Did I want industry standard 16% at dos? Yes! Southwest didn’t even get that and the DC was a big reason they voted down their first deal as would I if we weren’t getting it. This is a huge improvement.

Pbs, the majority of the pilots said they were willing to go to pbs to get a deal. Well here it is and many details unknown. The question is, is it enough for pbs because there so far are not many glaringly poor details that we didn’t already know about and some better than expected (we pick the vendor and vacation credit)

So if we vote it down it’s basically for more pay. So I lose $70k from a no vote to passing the next offer (both southwest and Delta waited about a year and they had other major issues for a no vote besides just pay). To make up that $70k lost I have to make $16 more an hour in the next offer just to break even. So I need at least $30/hr more to make it worth it and the whole time I have to carry that scope and LTD risk you guys at other carriers don’t have to shoulder while you wait. Also, while waiting I’m pushing out my next amendable date from 2023 to 2024 just to start this mess again.

So the question is do I think I can get $30/hr more a year from now? Do I want to push out my amendable date another year, and can I handle my massive scope and medical risk in that time and hope it doesn’t bite me.

I don’t think I can get another $30 in a year from these crooks, I don’t trust them not to codeshare, I absolutely don’t want to take the massive medical risk, and I don’t want to push out my amendable date another year.

Do I wish it was better? You're damn right! Do I think the NC got the best deal they could considering the NMB seem to be negotiating with the company? Yes.

Obviously the AIP is just bullet points so we need to see the full text but you can see we got some huge things in this that make waiting for probably minimally more pay difficult. Things that you guys already have at other airlines.

Originally Posted by Lakeaffect

5 hr duty period averaging sucks, but 1:3.5 trip rig will ensure this doesn’t happen.

Originally Posted by Qotsaautopilot

To the other airline guys:

No excuses, this does not help pattern bargaining and is an embarrassment.

What we don’t have that you don’t know is good scope. Any and ALL future growth can be codeshared out to Frontier, WoW (old ceo is on the board), Norwegian, etc. you wanted to know who does it cheaper than us; they all do. this AIP reigns that in, details unknown. That is a big deal though.

Also, our current LTD only pays for two years not til 65. Right now I’d get about $7k taxable for two years then- bubkus. This AIP removes that risk from my family immediately not later. Call it fear if you want but our medicals are so fragile.

Retirement is a massive improvement with a DC. We have a 9% match right now and under no circumstances is the company going to ever give me more than $18.5k. Now it’s a percentage of everything we make with no personal contribution required and if our top earners are hitting the combined personal and company contribution ($53k I think) they are getting the overage in cash. Spirits last offer had them keeping the overage for themselves. Did I want industry standard 16% at dos? Yes! Southwest didn’t even get that and the DC was a big reason they voted down their first deal as would I if we weren’t getting it. This is a huge improvement.

Pbs, the majority of the pilots said they were willing to go to pbs to get a deal. Well here it is and many details unknown. The question is, is it enough for pbs because there so far are not many glaringly poor details that we didn’t already know about and some better than expected (we pick the vendor and vacation credit)

So if we vote it down it’s basically for more pay. So I lose $70k from a no vote to passing the next offer (both southwest and Delta waited about a year and they had other major issues for a no vote besides just pay). To make up that $70k lost I have to make $16 more an hour in the next offer just to break even. So I need at least $30/hr more to make it worth it and the whole time I have to carry that scope and LTD risk you guys at other carriers don’t have to shoulder while you wait. Also, while waiting I’m pushing out my next amendable date from 2023 to 2024 just to start this mess again.

So the question is do I think I can get $30/hr more a year from now? Do I want to push out my amendable date another year, and can I handle my massive scope and medical risk in that time and hope it doesn’t bite me.

I don’t think I can get another $30 in a year from these crooks, I don’t trust them not to codeshare, I absolutely don’t want to take the massive medical risk, and I don’t want to push out my amendable date another year.

Do I wish it was better? You're damn right! Do I think the NC got the best deal they could considering the NMB seem to be negotiating with the company? Yes.

Obviously the AIP is just bullet points so we need to see the full text but you can see we got some huge things in this that make waiting for probably minimally more pay difficult. Things that you guys already have at other airlines.

Originally Posted by LloydBraun

My biggest concern now is the 5 hr duty period avg language and the possibility of the small credit 3 and 4 day trips.

I’ve never worked under PBS, but thought it was meant to make pairings more efficient.

As a commuter was hoping PBS might make getting efficient trips easier and making credit in 13 to 15 days work. If I’m going to work 16 to 17 days a month just to make credit I’m more than just a little concerned.