Negligent accounting
02-10-2018 | 07:37 AM
#31
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
You go back and start with the failed TA as a basis and go up from there.
No. You vote this down and you either fire or redirect your NC to renegotiate a new TA.
The NMB's job is to "close the deal." They couldn't care less if it's fair or not. They want a deal put out for a vote and hopefully closed. That's how they measure success, period, end of story. A deal being voted down brings them back and they want this deal done. Your most recent precedents of what happens after TA gets shot down are Delta and Southwest. I'm at Southwest. We essentially started over with a new NC, and new leadership and had a new and FAR superior TA about 9 months later. You couldn't even compare the two TA's, the first one was indeed THAT bad.
The mediators are allowed to lie and misdirect "in the interest of spurring the negotiations." That's why they use fear, uncertainty and doubt as one of their main tools, but in the end, it all lies with the membership and how you vote. They cannot coerce you into voting yes, but they can and do use your ignorance to their advantage simply to conclude the mediation.
Either this offer is adequate, or it's inadequate in relations to your peers. Either you're discount pilots or you're not. That's how the vote should go.
No. You vote this down and you either fire or redirect your NC to renegotiate a new TA.
The NMB's job is to "close the deal." They couldn't care less if it's fair or not. They want a deal put out for a vote and hopefully closed. That's how they measure success, period, end of story. A deal being voted down brings them back and they want this deal done. Your most recent precedents of what happens after TA gets shot down are Delta and Southwest. I'm at Southwest. We essentially started over with a new NC, and new leadership and had a new and FAR superior TA about 9 months later. You couldn't even compare the two TA's, the first one was indeed THAT bad.
The mediators are allowed to lie and misdirect "in the interest of spurring the negotiations." That's why they use fear, uncertainty and doubt as one of their main tools, but in the end, it all lies with the membership and how you vote. They cannot coerce you into voting yes, but they can and do use your ignorance to their advantage simply to conclude the mediation.
Either this offer is adequate, or it's inadequate in relations to your peers. Either you're discount pilots or you're not. That's how the vote should go.
02-10-2018 | 07:39 AM
#32
Banned
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
My thoughts exactly! The most vocal no voters never even made the attempt to attend a picketing event, some even thought it was stupid to show some unity by wearing one of the lanyards. Yet they’re appalled that this TA was the best the NC could come up with. I’m not willing to vote this down in hopes that a better TA will surface in a few months, when the majority of this pilot group has shown lack of unity to stand behind the NC and MEC during this process.
BTW was at 2 picketing events.....and continue to wear the “ready to strike” lanyard
02-10-2018 | 07:48 AM
#33
captain scarlet
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
From: Who needs to know?
This is becoming an intelligent thread, thanks to all.
Let's ignore the usual trolls.
So let's give up and let the company get away with this steal,
because we are not unified?
Every NO vote does not have to be a unification statement, but rather a statement on the appalling nature of this TA.
To each their own, if that's what we have become.
I'm starting to believe that management's propaganda has worked and we do not see this as a real airline, just like they don't.
Most of US however will be here forced to work under these horrendous rules many years past Bob's, Bendo's and Christie's tenures!
Unless we all agree that NK is nothing more than a stepping stone...
That's what this vote will show more that anything.
Wait for the June meltdown or give it all away now?
No logic whatsoever.
Let's ignore the usual trolls.
So let's give up and let the company get away with this steal,
because we are not unified?
Every NO vote does not have to be a unification statement, but rather a statement on the appalling nature of this TA.
To each their own, if that's what we have become.
I'm starting to believe that management's propaganda has worked and we do not see this as a real airline, just like they don't.
Most of US however will be here forced to work under these horrendous rules many years past Bob's, Bendo's and Christie's tenures!
Unless we all agree that NK is nothing more than a stepping stone...
That's what this vote will show more that anything.
Wait for the June meltdown or give it all away now?
No logic whatsoever.
02-10-2018 | 07:50 AM
#34
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Vote no. Clean house with the NC MEC. Company will feel pressure this summer with lack of hiring (they will anyways if this passes, and new hires see that ****ty training pay), and stand our ground until a better, more industry standard TA is presented. Either way I think it’s time to clean house, as this TA is an embarrassment.........
BTW was at 2 picketing events.....and continue to wear the “ready to strike” lanyard
BTW was at 2 picketing events.....and continue to wear the “ready to strike” lanyard
02-10-2018 | 08:00 AM
#36
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
This is becoming an intelligent thread, thanks to all.
Let's ignore the usual trolls.
So let's give up and let the company get away with this steal,
because we are not unified?
Every NO vote does not have to be a unification statement, but rather a statement on the appalling nature of this TA.
To each their own, if that's what we have become.
I'm starting to believe that management's propaganda has worked and we do not see this as a real airline, just like they don't.
Most of US however will be here forced to work under these horrendous rules many years past Bob's, Bendo's and Christie's tenures!
Unless we all agree that NK is nothing more than a stepping stone...
That's what this vote will show more that anything.
Wait for the June meltdown or give it all away now?
No logic whatsoever.
Let's ignore the usual trolls.
So let's give up and let the company get away with this steal,
because we are not unified?
Every NO vote does not have to be a unification statement, but rather a statement on the appalling nature of this TA.
To each their own, if that's what we have become.
I'm starting to believe that management's propaganda has worked and we do not see this as a real airline, just like they don't.
Most of US however will be here forced to work under these horrendous rules many years past Bob's, Bendo's and Christie's tenures!
Unless we all agree that NK is nothing more than a stepping stone...
That's what this vote will show more that anything.
Wait for the June meltdown or give it all away now?
No logic whatsoever.
I would love for this TA to be voted down by an 85% or more margin to send a strong messege. If this TA gets voted down for 51-60% we will lose big time. The loss of compensation for the amount of adjusting they’ll do to swing it back to the other side will not be worth it.
02-10-2018 | 08:01 AM
#37
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,276
Likes: 273
From: B737CA
Unfortunately pilot unity at NK lacks big time! I don’t know how it is at SWA. Voting this TA down and pushing it 1-2 years in hopes of getting a marginally better TA, would push back our amendable date back another 5 years plus an additional 2 years in negotiations (8-9 years total from today). All this in hopes of improving compensation $15-20/hr and whatever other small adjustments they’ll do the work rules is not worth it IMO. When you guys voted down your TA1 at SWA, you weren’t at the bottom of the industry in terms of pay, Ltd, scope etc., it’s much easier to be willing to wait for a better deal.
Actually, we were at the bottom of the industry among our peers. We didn't even have B-plan, and we were told over and over that we would NEVER have a B-plan at Southwest Airlines. TA1 only included 0.7% increase in 401k match. Our peers at Delta, United and American all had either 15 or 16% B-plan.
Well... 9-10 months later, after changing NC and our union leadership, we had industry-leading pay rates, until Delta and subsequently United with their me-too clause passed us, and we also got a B-plan.
It all boils down to what you're willing to accept. Pay comes and goes... PBS was a major concession of the last decade, and you're giving it away for bringing you closer to industry standard? I also think you should read a little more about LTD at other airlines and see how things work elsewhere since many of you seem to be excited about it. Hint, you can and should do FAR better.
As for unity... well, that's up to your leadership, how communicative they are, and how fired up they are. When we were in negotiations, we were getting something almost every day from the union. When over 1,000 pilots showed up for a picket in Dallas during blistering heat... you couldn't ignore it. Mind you, this is the biggest koolaid drinking pilot group in the industry. Strong leadership and defined goals. Do you have that?
I don't know what to say to you guys. I'd like to see you engage in a pattern-based bargaining fashion, or at least get very close, but you seem to be going against the very lanyard many of you wear and it's puzzling, to say the least.
02-10-2018 | 08:06 AM
#38
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,451
Likes: 24
From: Airplanes
I think our yes voters will be happy with the new gravy and think the signing bonus (which includes the next years :45 min a day period loss) will have them fat and happy for a few months. But hey, my 'retro' is costing me almost $2,000 and paying me $0 for the last three years. I should be grateful too.
02-10-2018 | 08:30 AM
#39
Banned
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
I've been waiting the pull the trigger hoping that what was presented here was tolerable. Section 25 is what really worries me. If we become Mainline Mesa I'll be making the switch if they'll have me.
I think our yes voters will be happy with the new gravy and think the signing bonus (which includes the next years :45 min a day period loss) will have them fat and happy for a few months. But hey, my 'retro' is costing me almost $2,000 and paying me $0 for the last three years. I should be grateful too.
I think our yes voters will be happy with the new gravy and think the signing bonus (which includes the next years :45 min a day period loss) will have them fat and happy for a few months. But hey, my 'retro' is costing me almost $2,000 and paying me $0 for the last three years. I should be grateful too.
02-10-2018 | 08:45 AM
#40
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Actually, we were at the bottom of the industry among our peers. We didn't even have B-plan, and we were told over and over that we would NEVER have a B-plan at Southwest Airlines. TA1 only included 0.7% increase in 401k match. Our peers at Delta, United and American all had either 15 or 16% B-plan.
Well... 9-10 months later, after changing NC and our union leadership, we had industry-leading pay rates, until Delta and subsequently United with their me-too clause passed us, and we also got a B-plan.
It all boils down to what you're willing to accept. Pay comes and goes... PBS was a major concession of the last decade, and you're giving it away for bringing you closer to industry standard? I also think you should read a little more about LTD at other airlines and see how things work elsewhere since many of you seem to be excited about it. Hint, you can and should do FAR better.
As for unity... well, that's up to your leadership, how communicative they are, and how fired up they are. When we were in negotiations, we were getting something almost every day from the union. When over 1,000 pilots showed up for a picket in Dallas during blistering heat... you couldn't ignore it. Mind you, this is the biggest koolaid drinking pilot group in the industry. Strong leadership and defined goals. Do you have that?
I don't know what to say to you guys. I'd like to see you engage in a pattern-based bargaining fashion, or at least get very close, but you seem to be going against the very lanyard many of you wear and it's puzzling, to say the least.
Well... 9-10 months later, after changing NC and our union leadership, we had industry-leading pay rates, until Delta and subsequently United with their me-too clause passed us, and we also got a B-plan.
It all boils down to what you're willing to accept. Pay comes and goes... PBS was a major concession of the last decade, and you're giving it away for bringing you closer to industry standard? I also think you should read a little more about LTD at other airlines and see how things work elsewhere since many of you seem to be excited about it. Hint, you can and should do FAR better.
As for unity... well, that's up to your leadership, how communicative they are, and how fired up they are. When we were in negotiations, we were getting something almost every day from the union. When over 1,000 pilots showed up for a picket in Dallas during blistering heat... you couldn't ignore it. Mind you, this is the biggest koolaid drinking pilot group in the industry. Strong leadership and defined goals. Do you have that?
I don't know what to say to you guys. I'd like to see you engage in a pattern-based bargaining fashion, or at least get very close, but you seem to be going against the very lanyard many of you wear and it's puzzling, to say the least.
I’m against PBS but according to the surveys some people actually like pbs and I’ve found this to be the case with some people I talk to or fly with.
As far as compensation goes, the pay needs to come up for some CA/FO’s in some longevities. The 10-12 captain rates are pretty industry standard. Unfortunately the Alaska arbitration put the cap on where the rates are for our peers.
Will shooting down this TA be worth a small increase in compensation? PBS is here to stay I’m afraid.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
