It's a hard call to make without 20/20 hindsight.

We (AS) were in a similar position, but the TA was a lot closer to big three and it passed with a solid margin.

I was actually confident that the folks who said "we can do better" were correct. But in hindsight if we had turned it down, we might have just been wrapping up TA 2.0 in late 2023 / early 2024... if it wasn't finished on the day the door plug came off, the company would have picked their offer up off the table and walked out of the room, never to return.

We'd still be in negotiations today, with a 2017 pay scale and no PBS, attrition halted, and over-staffed. Oopsie.

 

And with NK/F9 talks on again, NK securing gains in 2023 while F9 remains amendable, would help NK pilots on any SLI/JCBA.

 

Alpa merger policy will go into play. Pay rates will be raised at F9 to the current NK pay scale. Then the JCBA will be negotiated. Pay rates have nothing to do with how a seniority list will be integrated. When Ual Cal merged and Dal/ Northwest. Pay was brought up to the higher or the two. Then a JCBA was negotiated with a seniority list. JCBA usually is held up by one pilot group not the company. The company will want the synergies of a combined airline as fast as possible.

 

You couldn’t be more wrong if you tried

F9 has no obligation to raise rates to NK rates prior to a JCBA (ask NK pilots about the second bite)

In a SLI the arbitrator will weigh all equities brought in by the pilot groups, pay is indeed a factor (see JBLU not wanting to raise NK to their rates for this reason)

The JCBA will not be negotiated with the ISL, they are separate and separate for a reason. You can not have the ISL prior to approval of the JCBA. The JCBA has to come first.

As far as JCBA goes, NK pilots will recognize it as familiar to what we had with JBLU. We wanted to get snapups to JBLU rates, JBLU management and their MEC didn’t want that. So you’re hoping Franke wants to give you guys a snap up, prior to a JCBA, which will likely cost him more money in a JCBA because F9 is now starting from a higher point. Hardly likely

 

Absolutely no way both pilot groups will be brought to the same pay scale prior to a JCBA being reached.

 

100%. If Robin Hayes didn’t want to do it, no way Franke and Biffle want to do it.

 

No. ALPA policy isn't remotely able to force an airline to unilaterally raise rates pending a JCBA, unless one of the CBA's has scope language to that effect.

The JCBA is where the three parties reconcile the two CBA's into one, and that includes the pay tables in the CBA's.

I've experienced two such mergers in the last decade. No raises until after JCBA.

It will normally be negotiated after the financial M&A is complete, ie the check clears and the stock is transferred. Everything RLA is status quo in the meantime. Each labor group operates separately under their own CBA (including pay tables).

That's true.

I don't think that happened. If it did, it was either specified in one of the CBA's (possible) or a gift from the the company (doubtful).

Does NK or F9 have a CBA provision that specifies immediate snap up upon merger transaction?

That's true.

 

You are incorrect in thinking pay rates do not factor into the construction of the integrated seniority list.

 

Ok, they do factor but to a very negligible degree in this kind of merger (NB/NB).

The "career expectations" component of the merger policy is vastly weighted for three things:

1. Widebodies
2. Widebodies
3. Widebodies

After the WB pilots get theirs, you'll see a little DOH weighting if there's any disparity between the lists. That will factor (deduct) furlough time, for those who have/had it.

After all that, maybe some consideration for pre-JCBA pay scale. Just maybe.

I'd love to be proven wrong on that, and I'll come back and correct the record if I am. I'll know before you guys do.

#EXPECTATIONMANAGEMENT

 

Pay disparity relating to differnt hourly rates is not a part of career expectations, like you said thats more dealing with heavy/nb. Its dealing with the equities each group brings in, and that those will be considered as well as the "ALPA 3" factors to be considered as well. Pay rates are equities brought in and referenced in the major ALPA mergers

Delta/Nw this was addressed as NW pilots would see higher pay from the merger because of the equities brought in by the DAL contract, "including the contract improvements that one pilot group will gain due to the merger.


Airways/American West-"taking into account in
balancing the equities the gains to US Airways pilots from America West’s higher pay
rates and better work rules"

Heck, even Pinnacle/Mesaba/Colgan addressed the fact that Pinnacle and Colgan pilots would benefit from the higher CRJ900 rates in their contract

The merger policy requires all equities to be weighed unique to the groups. One group making what, 20% more top end, will surely be raised by the NK merger committee and laywers.

F9 wll be able to use the equities of "we are the acquiring company," which they will. Both sides will use what they have. But this is why JBLU did not want NK pilots snapped up and why NK pilots wont advocate for F9 pilots to be snapped up