Spirit of NKS
01-23-2015 | 07:05 PM
#9921
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 209
Likes: 0
From: A320 captain
...such as skybolt has listed here
By the way I think "maturity" in this context can be considered relative. For example, ours is not nearly as mature as Delta's.
In the context of negotiations we should aim high.
I think you're correct regarding comparable's.
But I'll disagree that our contract is mature. As you know, C1999 was just a codification of existing Supplemental work conditions. C2003 was a slight rewrite and C2010 was another slight rewrite. Since you and I sat in new hire GS, the only real difference between the then existing CBA and now - is in hourly pay rates. The 5/4 days off was extant. No forced flying was extant. True transition conflict was extant, and was given away in C2003 (post Sept11 conditions) and then partially regained in C2010. We had a daily guarantee, which was given away in C2003 (again, in the post Sept11 environment) and not regained in C2010.
I could go on, but realistically we are on our first re-negotiation not affected by: terrorism, SARS, worldwide economic collapse, etc.
IOW, we need to focus on far more than hourly rates.
Hourly rates need to increase.
Pay rates need to be flattened out as you mention.
Fatigue protection needs improvement.
Long Term Disability needs improvement.
We need Short Term Disability.
Retirement, well we need some sort of retirement.
And much more I'm sure.
But I'll disagree that our contract is mature. As you know, C1999 was just a codification of existing Supplemental work conditions. C2003 was a slight rewrite and C2010 was another slight rewrite. Since you and I sat in new hire GS, the only real difference between the then existing CBA and now - is in hourly pay rates. The 5/4 days off was extant. No forced flying was extant. True transition conflict was extant, and was given away in C2003 (post Sept11 conditions) and then partially regained in C2010. We had a daily guarantee, which was given away in C2003 (again, in the post Sept11 environment) and not regained in C2010.
I could go on, but realistically we are on our first re-negotiation not affected by: terrorism, SARS, worldwide economic collapse, etc.
IOW, we need to focus on far more than hourly rates.
Hourly rates need to increase.
Pay rates need to be flattened out as you mention.
Fatigue protection needs improvement.
Long Term Disability needs improvement.
We need Short Term Disability.
Retirement, well we need some sort of retirement.
And much more I'm sure.
In the context of negotiations we should aim high.
Last edited by TTOCSMCC; 01-23-2015 at 07:24 PM.
01-23-2015 | 07:08 PM
#9922
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
From: A320
The LOA SUX. Is that what you were looking for? Maybe we need a new negotiator, or maybe you guys should of read it before it hit the light of day! Somebody's incompetent, "who" is the question.
01-23-2015 | 08:45 PM
#9923
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
It's all laid out in the LOA.
01-24-2015 | 04:14 AM
#9924
Banned
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 554
Likes: 0
From: B-767 FO
Day 1 Doors, Raft, Slides, etc
Day 2 Warmup Sim
Day 3 PC/PT
01-24-2015 | 04:26 AM
#9925
ULTP-Ultra Low Tier Pilot
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,228
Likes: 0
Most of us do not like the LOA but read the thing and the Q&A info provided (should have been out a week ago) and then blast away if you want. But read the info first before blasting Jason and how bad the LOA is.
01-24-2015 | 05:10 AM
#9926
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 173
Likes: 0
Here's a breakdown of what you would credit under the current training system vs the distance learning LOA. Assuming in both cases the training is scheduled on days off.
Current
3 days ground - 12 hrs
DHD (to/from training @ 50% DHD) - 6 hrs
2 days sim - 8 hrs
DHD (to/from training @ 50% DHD) - estimated 6 hrs
Total = 32 hrs credit
Proposed LOA
2 days distance learning - 10 hrs
1 day recurrent ground - 4 hrs
2 days sim - 8 hrs
DHD (to/from training @ 50% DHD) - estimated 6 hrs
Total = 28 hrs credit
In both of these scenarios, we are assuming that all of the training would be scheduled on days off. However, in the case that training is scheduled over a trip, it is possible (and in fact more likely) that you will credit more under the new LOA as the 10 hrs for distance learning always goes above your line value. In the case that recurrent was scheduled over a trip, you would only be guaranteed the greater of the trip or training event. My captain and I were doing the math and figured out that he would have actually credited more hours under the new LOA for his training event this month than he did under the current system.
If you take the DHDs out of the equation (applicable to FLL and now LAS crews) you actually credit more under the new distance learning agreement.
Current
3 days ground - 12 hrs
DHD (to/from training @ 50% DHD) - 6 hrs
2 days sim - 8 hrs
DHD (to/from training @ 50% DHD) - estimated 6 hrs
Total = 32 hrs credit
Proposed LOA
2 days distance learning - 10 hrs
1 day recurrent ground - 4 hrs
2 days sim - 8 hrs
DHD (to/from training @ 50% DHD) - estimated 6 hrs
Total = 28 hrs credit
In both of these scenarios, we are assuming that all of the training would be scheduled on days off. However, in the case that training is scheduled over a trip, it is possible (and in fact more likely) that you will credit more under the new LOA as the 10 hrs for distance learning always goes above your line value. In the case that recurrent was scheduled over a trip, you would only be guaranteed the greater of the trip or training event. My captain and I were doing the math and figured out that he would have actually credited more hours under the new LOA for his training event this month than he did under the current system.
If you take the DHDs out of the equation (applicable to FLL and now LAS crews) you actually credit more under the new distance learning agreement.
01-24-2015 | 05:22 AM
#9927
Boost is Life
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
From: In the Garage
These issues are all great points and they are being brought to the MEC to have another Q&A made.
I will answer any questions I can here as I'm able. This is my vacation.
I will not discuss tactics HERE, feel free to call.
And to the scare tactics: relax a little. This is what we see coming and it caught my attention and reminded me of a certain tactic that was successfully done at 9E. We are presenting the info. You decide. I just want to make sure everyone understands what's coming because comparing today to iPads with a year from now may not be a valid comparison. As management said "training as we've known it at Spirit will be no more."
What I'd really love to see is all the folks who plan on voting to call a rep or anyone who was at the meeting this week.
I will answer any questions I can here as I'm able. This is my vacation.
I will not discuss tactics HERE, feel free to call.
And to the scare tactics: relax a little. This is what we see coming and it caught my attention and reminded me of a certain tactic that was successfully done at 9E. We are presenting the info. You decide. I just want to make sure everyone understands what's coming because comparing today to iPads with a year from now may not be a valid comparison. As management said "training as we've known it at Spirit will be no more."
What I'd really love to see is all the folks who plan on voting to call a rep or anyone who was at the meeting this week.
01-24-2015 | 05:29 AM
#9928
Boost is Life
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
From: In the Garage
Here's a breakdown of what you would credit under the current training system vs the distance learning LOA. Assuming in both cases the training is scheduled on days off.
Current
3 days ground - 12 hrs
DHD (to/from training @ 50% DHD) - 6 hrs
2 days sim - 8 hrs
DHD (to/from training @ 50% DHD) - estimated 6 hrs
Total = 32 hrs credit
Proposed LOA
2 days distance learning - 10 hrs
1 day recurrent ground - 4 hrs
2 days sim - 8 hrs
DHD (to/from training @ 50% DHD) - estimated 6 hrs
Total = 28 hrs credit
In both of these scenarios, we are assuming that all of the training would be scheduled on days off. However, in the case that training is scheduled over a trip, it is possible (and in fact more likely) that you will credit more under the new LOA as the 10 hrs for distance learning always goes above your line value. In the case that recurrent was scheduled over a trip, you would only be guaranteed the greater of the trip or training event. My captain and I were doing the math and figured out that he would have actually credited more hours under the new LOA for his training event this month than he did under the current system.
If you take the DHDs out of the equation (applicable to FLL and now LAS crews) you actually credit more under the new distance learning agreement.
Current
3 days ground - 12 hrs
DHD (to/from training @ 50% DHD) - 6 hrs
2 days sim - 8 hrs
DHD (to/from training @ 50% DHD) - estimated 6 hrs
Total = 32 hrs credit
Proposed LOA
2 days distance learning - 10 hrs
1 day recurrent ground - 4 hrs
2 days sim - 8 hrs
DHD (to/from training @ 50% DHD) - estimated 6 hrs
Total = 28 hrs credit
In both of these scenarios, we are assuming that all of the training would be scheduled on days off. However, in the case that training is scheduled over a trip, it is possible (and in fact more likely) that you will credit more under the new LOA as the 10 hrs for distance learning always goes above your line value. In the case that recurrent was scheduled over a trip, you would only be guaranteed the greater of the trip or training event. My captain and I were doing the math and figured out that he would have actually credited more hours under the new LOA for his training event this month than he did under the current system.
If you take the DHDs out of the equation (applicable to FLL and now LAS crews) you actually credit more under the new distance learning agreement.
01-24-2015 | 05:34 AM
#9929
Boost is Life
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
From: In the Garage
Is it not possible to edit posts? I have a temperamental touch screen and I don't usually catch mistakes until after I've posted.
You know why the image verification is on this site right?
You know why the image verification is on this site right?
01-24-2015 | 05:47 AM
#9930
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 307
Likes: 0
From: A320HD
I knew somebody would beat me to this math. Also it is not just LAS that will be doing ground school in domicile. Its going to be the whole airline, from what was reported. So the DHD pay is going away and you will be on the hook for hotels if you commute. The LOA is not perfect. I'd like to see it perfect. However given the information I have I will be voting yes, but that's just me. In no way shpuld you feel coerced into voting yes or no. Just please for the love of all things good call a rep before you vote.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
