Thor

You’re talking about the guys with 30% of our widebody fleet because of relaxed JV language?

baseball

well, there's that.

Some of their language isn't so appealing.

Itsajob

We shouldn’t compare United to Delta since we do things differently. The two companies will always have different results. Our contract places restrictions on the company that aren’t there at Delta. Personally, I like United. We have plenty for everyone. There is a ton of domestic flying, and we have more WB international flying opportunities than Delta does. They might get bigger profit sharing checks than we do, but I’d rather keep what we have than give up what they did to generate those profits. I wonder if they have people in their probationary period being awarded the 777. Both airlines are great places to work, but I’m thankful that I ended up here.

Sniper66

However irs not just a job

As your avatar
“Itsajob”

It’s more than that

Itsajob

To some it is more than a job, to others it’s just what we do for money. I show up when scheduled, actually try to do my job well, I appreciate what I have, but at the end of the day I’ll never miss this when I retire and I’ll never fly an airplane again.

crewdawg

I wouldn't say they're "humming right along." I have a strong feeling we have ran into a brick wall now that all the easy sections are finished up.

I don't disagree with you about our scope, but you're purposely leaving out our 330/764 fleet since we don't band them. Add them in and it's closer to 65% and increasing. For some reason, there is extreme resistance to banding all our WBs by some in our pilot group. But yes, we'll likely never see the number of WBs that UAL has.

baseball

I would respectfully disagree with that. Here's why. ALPA compares not just our contract to DAL, but they compare our contracts to multiple airlines contracts. It's not only what pilots intuitively do, but it's what ALPA does in order to place value on contracts over the short and long terms.

Delta has taken a Larry Kellner and Gordon Bethune approach. Rather than grow international routes organically, they grow them via "the network." it's a strategic play to be sure. Continental didn't have the international footprint that it truly needed to bring in the high yield PRASM's and RASM's. But, DAL does have three times the overall footprint.

I hear what you are saying, but the reason we had Delta plus in the first place was because ALPA decided to protect the pilots should DAL leap-frog us. I would argue for stronger DAL plus language in the future. I don't think it costs us anything in negotiating capital, so it's a wise and prudent play. This time, I would add in to that other DAL plus protections. Perhaps some management plus protections too.

1. Automatic pay raise of 1.5% (above DAL) should DAL pass UAL pilots in hourly pay rates.

2. UAL management bonus match. If UAL management receives bonuses, a similar bonus scheme will be rewarded to pilots on a percentage basis.

3. Stock buy-back bonus. Should UAL buy-back stock, a pro-rata (4 to 1) computation will be achieved so as to reward pilots for this accomplishment. For example. if the company spends 100 million to buy back stock, a 25 million dollar bonus will be awarded to pilots to be split equally.

4. Full examination of all UAL management executive compensation and bonus structure. Should this examination result in an opinion that the pilots are being excluded, then a mathematical formula should be arrived at to discern what amount of money the pilots should be entitled to... (the me-too clause).

5. Should other airlines pass UAL pilots in terms of benefits, an XYZ plus clause should be implemented.

6. Should other airlines pass UAL pilots in terms of retirement programs, an ABC plus clause should be implemented.

I remember when Smizek was comparing CAL pilots wages to Aer Lingus pilots wages who were flying UAL metal across the Atlantic. Management pays attention to what pilots make not only on Equipment, and Status, but also on routes. I recall Smizek showing a slide as to what Iceland air, Norwegian, and Aer Lingus were paying pilots and comparing that to CAL pilots so as to place downward pressure on our wage expectations.

Itsajob

I can’t argue with this and we are actually in agreement. I was more pointing my comments at the people who say that Delta does this or that and we should too. We are different companies with different route structures, revenue, and expenses. They point out the big profit sharing checks, but overlook their scope language. I prefer how we do things for the most part, and I’m glad that the pendulum is swinging back to more mainline flying and less outsourcing. It’s going to be a fight, probably a long one, but I think that the market is on our side for the first time in a very long time. Fewer people are entering this field, and demand for our service is rising. That will mean that the airlines will move to a few less flights, but on bigger aircraft, flown by mainline pilots. Putting protections and “me too” clauses in this next contract should be insisted on. I’d love to see the airlines collectively raise the bar.

baseball

As we're discussing contracts for other airlines. I thought it might be interesting to mention I have a friend at AA who is a 777 FO. he made 500 K per year, for three straight years. Somehow he can drop all his trips and simply pick up premium pay trips. Kudos to those who are taking it back!

I think at the end of the day, what's really important is the amount of real dollars we put into our real bank accounts.

Where i am relative to where I projected myself to be when I entered the profession in 1991 is about 1.5 million short in terms of retirement, and about 4 million short in earnings.

I am sure other grey-haired types want to get back what was taken from us under bankruptcy, threat of bankruptcy, retirement freezes, retirements stolen, and liquidity short-fall.

I have a son who is a forensic accountant. His analysis of Pilot compensation since deregulation is interesting indeed. His estimate is we've been short-changed about 35% as a profession.

Anytime management teams can find leverage to lower the cost and value of a pilot they will do it. You can NEVER trust management. When they find a weakness in a cba, they will exploit it. Our language needs to be tight, and the consequences for violating the cba need to be tighter. We must continually increase the value of a pilot to command a better wage and bring about a full return on our investment and restore all dignity to the profession that was stolen from us.

There is a lesson: No give backs ever! Once you give it up, it may take an entire generation to take it back. Then...you really never get it back. Those in the twilight of their careers that gave it up, retire and never give it back. Those in the middle of their careers lose in the short term and long term, and those in the beginning of their careers lose the full intrinsic value of a dollar earned and invested.

I am hoping the new guys are paying attention. If you came from UND or another college program your professors likely didn't talk about deregulation, strikes, scabbing, or management trickery to steal your earning potential. Wise up and don't buy into management's talking points (whatever they are).

PackPilot

OAL guy here with a question about your next contract. Are you guys using negotiating capital to try to get some improvements to reserve? I'm wondering specifically about LCR (my understanding is you are mostly doing SCR on reserve now) with perhaps a longer callout time, and maybe the option to only need one flight to commute if on company metal. I would love to work for United but wouldn't be able to move to a base. However both EWR and IAD would be a fairly easy commute, especially if I was able to bid LCR. Thanks!