I heard the company added one more demand to the table here recently. Any idea what it is?

 

DCA 321 FO said:
"They will screw us if we accept this deal as it stands, get your finances in order and wait 1 year for the bigger raise."

Just Jack said:
"On the other hand, although you will likely get less in arbitration, at least you went down fighting and Parker will not get to flaunt what he did to us in the press."

Just so everything is clear here: If these negotiations go to arbitration the AAL group pilots will not get 'bigger raises;' the rates will most likely be much lower than the rates that are on the table now. I think this is what Canoe is getting at. A snapshot on Jan. 1, 2016 is taken and that is it. If DAL gets an industry leading contract on Jan. 2, 2016 the pay parity mechanism still references what DAL and UAL both had in place in Jan. 1, 2016 only, and it's a one time adjustment.

I agree that with big profits looming, now is not the time for concessions, but if this goes to arbitration AAL pilots will be leaving significant money in the table.

An analogy: A 7 year old kid who gets 3 bucks a week in allowance from his folks. He tells his dad he wants 5 bucks a week and his dad says the family can only afford 4 bucks a week. The kid says "screw you dad I'll stick with the 3 bucks a week!" and then tells all his friends: "I showed my dad!"

That may be a bit of an oversimplification, but it seems pertinent in this case to the current situation. The contract as it stands now is the worst of the big 3 legacies and going to arbitration simply locks it in for a few more years and leaves a significant amount of money on the table.

I just hope people are thinking rationally about this.

-Hotel Pen

 

That probably was for the BOD to read the latest arbitration AWARD for the Flight Attendants and WEEP.

Here, let me help you:
https://www.apfa.org/images/arbitrat...-and-appdx.pdf

 

I'm glad you said it. Be prepared to go into EF and PT personal cornfield now. They don't like "money". They just like to wave the "screw you" flag of "unity" for the sake of unionism INSTEAD of looking at the reality of the situation we are in.

 

The company tried to open up an already TA'd section (something with healthcare I think) causing our negotiators to walk out of the room. The company ask was subsequently pulled off the table. Just another delay/distraction tactic to mess with us. A Jerry Glass special.

 

They will cut a lot more captain positions if this POS gets voted in eliminating separate international and domestic divisions. That's what we call a concession.

 

The lions share of "money" that is lost will be the first year bribe that's paying for the asked for concessions to pay for that bribe, so yes cash is lost, but in exchange for the lost cash, work rules are retained. Snapshot 2017 for reference;

Based solely on the present MTA provisions (arbitrated pay), the 12-year Group II captains rate will be from lowest to highest (approx.), United - $224/hour, AA - $230/hour, Delta - $240/hour.

That's $10/hour less then Delta, but $6/hour more then United, so we'd be in the middle AND Parker doesn't get his work-rule grab. That's hardly a disaster in my book. Snapshot 2019 for reference;

Still based solely on MTA provisions and assuming a 5% increase for Delta, the 12-year Group II captains rate will be from lowest to highest (approx.), United - $224/hour, AA - $236/hour, Delta - $249/hour. Our pay rate lags Delta's now by $13/hour, but also increases over United's by $12/hour. United's contract isn't even amendable until 2017 and you can expect AT LEAST a 3-5 year kabuki dance on that, so we'll still have generally our present Green Brook provisions and be in section 6 ourselves when United is still mired in theirs, only in a better position both contractually and concurrently due to two of the three legacy carriers in negotiations at the same time AND Delta the new industry leader and benchmark for competitive compensation. I LIKE that scenario !!!


As it stands now, well........that's debateable. From a pay RATE perspective, yes, but from a PRESENT work rule perspective, not necessarily. Arbitration will result in initial loss of a bribe that requires it be paid for in other areas, but long-term, arbitration appears more beneficial and at least both denies the bully another successful (and long-standing) round of bullying (not to mention lying) and lets investors, customers and the media know that Parker lied to them as much as us and had no intention of correcting the labor problems at this carrier, a condition that he even admitted was a major reason it was competitively hamstrung against its rivals. He'll also know (as well as the others) that he'll have the backs of the majority of 15,000 pilots turned against him going into the future. The only certain exception to that is 66, who will certainly be there to throw rocks at the rest of the pilots who cheated him out of his immediate financial orgasm. Going forward, the Green Book should essentially remain intact denying Parker his spoils and in 2016 we make less the Delta pilots, but more than United pilots and in 2019 while UAL is almost certainly slugging out their pilots contract, we'll join the party with certainly no less and possibly even greater leverage and argument.

You can be assured that many of us ARE putting emotion, fear and yes, even greed in the form of immediate gratification aside and using rationale to formulate the best assessment of this situation. Jumping greedily at tainted money is the choice of certain road kill, but that carcass is only concerned with itself and minimizing the plethora of blue bottle flies amassing on it while it bakes in the sun. I have no interest in sacrificing myself or best interests for Parker or rotting road kill and it would be wise to think about the situation free of the self-serving empty pleas of both.

 

I just don't see how we ever get back the 25-30k maybe more lost for 2015 depending on Los and the 4-8k every single year until our next contract not including all the additional money in our DC plans over the next several years. Additionally all the new hires in 2015 stand to lose about 30k with the proposed increase to approx $77/hr. I thought I heard 500 plus new hires.

2018 is a long way away and any kind of major world unrest, health epidemic etc..... You can kiss your industry leading contract bye bye...

Take the money while you can get it because it ain't gonna last, I can guarantee that!

 

I'd also like to add that I think this is a critical time for out pilot group and whatever the final best last offer is should go out for a vote to the membership. If it fails and goes to arbitration fine but based on everyone I've worked with in the last 2 months, most seem to generally share the same view I posted earlier and I actually think it would have a good chance to pass. This includes AA pilots we've had in Jumpseat.

I'll go back to being a lurker for the next 5 years again now!

 

It's trading one thing for another. In the case of the MTA, keeping the Green book provisions and living up to the MOU pay that we as a group accepted. Parker said if AAG was profitable (and baby, you ain't seen NOTHING yet), we'd get Delta pay rates. He left out about the part of buying them with concessions elsewhere.

At some point, you have to stop prostituting yourself to people like that or they'll always see you as a prostitute. If we take just any deal, we'll still be streetwalkers in 2020 and I'd rather show up a year earlier sans sleazy mini-dress, pocket purse and shaved legs. I understand that some don't care and you seem to among them. That's your choice, not mine. As it stands now, the fact is the BOD is divided in the majority to not just accept what's on the table so far and punt to the membership. It's ironic that a certain self-appointed "road warrior" here's own reps (US Airways East) are among the most adamant in their stance against Parker (regardless of their motives) and if it weren't for those reps (which I agree with), then the weaker APA would have already kicked what's there to us. It's ironic because it's he that blames the APA for this when he really should look at his own guys. But I digress into attempting to understand the illogically absurd and my apologies.........

Anyhoo, I'm for a deal, but not one that doesn't better recognize our worth and this airlines future, especially with the pilots efforts and leadership as a major factor. It's simply selling yourself short. 2018 isn't that long (especially when our pay will be MORE then UAL's in 12 months) as our strategic bankruptcy was entered 3 years ago in the opposite. Time flies when you're old. I'm not going to trade a 1 year bribe (and a fictitious one at that) for long-term advantage or principle. I hope the BOD doesn't either. I think the can cannot be kicked past Thursday and APA will either have to **** or get off the pot. Whether Parker flushes the toilet at that point (proffer arbitration) is up to him, but if he does, I think the smell will actually improve over time.