JCBA timeline extension
12-05-2014 | 11:32 AM
#971
Banned
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
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....My opinion is that Parker WILL want to salvage something and can still rehabilitate his image, at least with outsiders. If outright rejection was likely, that would have already occurred. Instead, they need time to evaluate APA's counter and to prepare a response. I believe that response will NOT be a rejection. It will be a "final offer" that offers SOME compromise, which was the intention all along (although bed wetters like Mr. 66 do give people like Parker and Kirby wistful looks of wishful thinking 
) . Specifically (if that's possible), my guesses as to that compromise ?;
- The Pay-Scope "equation" will be balanced out so that scope is essentially industry standard (equal) to BOTH Delta and United (give or take a few jets), while Pay (minus profit-sharing) in their belief better approximates Delta's. That means look for an increase from APA's proposal of both 50-70 seat RJ's and 76-seat RJ's, but a decrease in fleet count overall. The pay will be upped to match Delta rates with a slightly increased sweetener in extra percentage for the absence of profit-sharing to approximate in the middle (7.5%+/-). Thus, both the major critical items will be close enough in the ballpark to be considered industry-standard or competitive.
- Most of their other demands will remain with IMHO, the exception of LOS which may see a "bump" in pay step (perhaps 2 years) for those who experienced furlough, but rejection of any LTD alterations or placing the 321 in group III. Instead regarding the 321, perhaps an "override" for hours actually flown.
This would fall in line with the intended strategy of the first proposal coming so late in the deadline (another reason for that was to use any F/A's rejection and subsequent goosestep to arbitration as a psychological block to multiple back-and-forth proposals on the pilots side - they may return to negotiations AFTER we vote on any TA and/or see a mediated result in arbitration). Parker wasn't sending a TIOLI proposal, so there HAS to be some wiggle room they were willing to make. It's a great strategy, if you look at it. Now, when they send their "final" offer back to the APA, it will be tough for the APA to reject it as they will look like the unreasonable and the demanding side. The "sweetened" offer (so common in these types of negotiations, IT is almost "industry standard") is substantially better then the MOU and the APA can say we've taken it as far as we can and between the two options, the "LBFO" (has anyone heard THAT before ?
) can be recommended with a straight face. Perhaps not accepted with opens arms by a percentage of the pilots, but this scenario has already successfully played itself out in the LBFO I rejection that resulted in the ratification of LBFO II.
It's a familiar kabuki dance, IMO.
) . Specifically (if that's possible), my guesses as to that compromise ?;- The Pay-Scope "equation" will be balanced out so that scope is essentially industry standard (equal) to BOTH Delta and United (give or take a few jets), while Pay (minus profit-sharing) in their belief better approximates Delta's. That means look for an increase from APA's proposal of both 50-70 seat RJ's and 76-seat RJ's, but a decrease in fleet count overall. The pay will be upped to match Delta rates with a slightly increased sweetener in extra percentage for the absence of profit-sharing to approximate in the middle (7.5%+/-). Thus, both the major critical items will be close enough in the ballpark to be considered industry-standard or competitive.
- Most of their other demands will remain with IMHO, the exception of LOS which may see a "bump" in pay step (perhaps 2 years) for those who experienced furlough, but rejection of any LTD alterations or placing the 321 in group III. Instead regarding the 321, perhaps an "override" for hours actually flown.
This would fall in line with the intended strategy of the first proposal coming so late in the deadline (another reason for that was to use any F/A's rejection and subsequent goosestep to arbitration as a psychological block to multiple back-and-forth proposals on the pilots side - they may return to negotiations AFTER we vote on any TA and/or see a mediated result in arbitration). Parker wasn't sending a TIOLI proposal, so there HAS to be some wiggle room they were willing to make. It's a great strategy, if you look at it. Now, when they send their "final" offer back to the APA, it will be tough for the APA to reject it as they will look like the unreasonable and the demanding side. The "sweetened" offer (so common in these types of negotiations, IT is almost "industry standard") is substantially better then the MOU and the APA can say we've taken it as far as we can and between the two options, the "LBFO" (has anyone heard THAT before ?
) can be recommended with a straight face. Perhaps not accepted with opens arms by a percentage of the pilots, but this scenario has already successfully played itself out in the LBFO I rejection that resulted in the ratification of LBFO II.It's a familiar kabuki dance, IMO.
Apparently Glassker (or Parkass, if you choose
) has softened his "wants" just a tad, so it would seem that the strategy of some that the best approach was for the lazy pilots to immediately roll over for a good belly rub would have left value on the table and has proven at least at this point to be wrong. The 2-hour RSV callout has been retracted and substituted with industry comparable language of "prompt". The agreement to a 5:10 minimum day upon PBS activation and a one year LOS bump for furloughees. It's minimal movement at this time, but it is movement. APA has been floating balloons to see how the membership feels with mixed reviews, mostly in the negative although apparently the majority at the ORD domicile meeting of 8-10% of its pilots was reported to have stood up and cheered.The BOD remains split, but clearly both sides want an out. I expect a few additional minor sweeteners and then the BOD will get just enough to punt to the pilots. THAT is where the wildcard will exist. It's going to be a tough breakdown again, IMO. Many senior (and U East) will vote yes and virtually all the furloughees will vote no. Then, there are the two ends of the bell curve with the "Delta or bust" crowd on one side and the "can we just get through this without being hit" crowd on the other. The middle of the bell can go either way. Tough to tell the real percentages there. I predict that aside from a deal that's passed to the pilots, a fairly close vote with the deciding victor in the approximate 55% range. That is based on a final product only slightly sweetened from what's presently known to be on the table.
Of course, the APA is good at packaging marginal deals to their pilots, so perhaps the deciding factor will be their salesmanship ?
12-05-2014 | 12:27 PM
#972
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,450
Likes: 0
From: Airbus button pusher
Well, just a refresh to update the situation.
Apparently Glassker (or Parkass, if you choose) has softened his "wants" just a tad, so it would seem that the strategy of some that the best approach was for the lazy pilots to immediately roll over for a good belly rub would have left value on the table and has proven at least at this point to be wrong. The 2-hour RSV callout has been retracted and substituted with industry comparable language of "prompt". The agreement to a 5:10 minimum day upon PBS activation and a one year LOS bump for furloughees. It's minimal movement at this time, but it is movement. APA has been floating balloons to see how the membership feels with mixed reviews, mostly in the negative although apparently the majority at the ORD domicile meeting of 8-10% of its pilots was reported to have stood up and cheered.
The BOD remains split, but clearly both sides want an out. I expect a few additional minor sweeteners and then the BOD will get just enough to punt to the pilots. THAT is where the wildcard will exist. It's going to be a tough breakdown again, IMO. Many senior (and U East) will vote yes and virtually all the furloughees will vote no. Then, there are the two ends of the bell curve with the "Delta or bust" crowd on one side and the "can we just get through this without being hit" crowd on the other. The middle of the bell can go either way. Tough to tell the real percentages there. I predict that aside from a deal that's passed to the pilots, a fairly close vote with the deciding victor in the approximate 55% range. That is based on a final product only slightly sweetened from what's presently known to be on the table.
Of course, the APA is good at packaging marginal deals to their pilots, so perhaps the deciding factor will be their salesmanship ?
Apparently Glassker (or Parkass, if you choose
) has softened his "wants" just a tad, so it would seem that the strategy of some that the best approach was for the lazy pilots to immediately roll over for a good belly rub would have left value on the table and has proven at least at this point to be wrong. The 2-hour RSV callout has been retracted and substituted with industry comparable language of "prompt". The agreement to a 5:10 minimum day upon PBS activation and a one year LOS bump for furloughees. It's minimal movement at this time, but it is movement. APA has been floating balloons to see how the membership feels with mixed reviews, mostly in the negative although apparently the majority at the ORD domicile meeting of 8-10% of its pilots was reported to have stood up and cheered.The BOD remains split, but clearly both sides want an out. I expect a few additional minor sweeteners and then the BOD will get just enough to punt to the pilots. THAT is where the wildcard will exist. It's going to be a tough breakdown again, IMO. Many senior (and U East) will vote yes and virtually all the furloughees will vote no. Then, there are the two ends of the bell curve with the "Delta or bust" crowd on one side and the "can we just get through this without being hit" crowd on the other. The middle of the bell can go either way. Tough to tell the real percentages there. I predict that aside from a deal that's passed to the pilots, a fairly close vote with the deciding victor in the approximate 55% range. That is based on a final product only slightly sweetened from what's presently known to be on the table.
Of course, the APA is good at packaging marginal deals to their pilots, so perhaps the deciding factor will be their salesmanship ?
I personally think adding a year to the contract is a concession in itself.
Gonna need more sweetners for a yes vote from me.
12-05-2014 | 12:51 PM
#973
Banned
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
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Just to be clear so people that read your post aren't confused, it's an average min day pay, not calendar, which is awful. So a 3 day trip/redeye can still be paid 5 hours less than at united or delta.
I personally think adding a year to the contract is a concession in itself.
Gonna need more sweetners for a yes vote from me.
I personally think adding a year to the contract is a concession in itself.
Gonna need more sweetners for a yes vote from me.
Additionally, I think when pilots and other employees see the STAGGARING profits this company is slated for over the next few years, they'll kick themselves for capitulating to another huckster. I'll trade the taxed pay bump for 2015 for an earlier opportunity at section 6 and shelve the "wants" from both sides to keep exactly what we have. Don't forget that combining Domestic and International will improve efficiency and ultimately cost pilot jobs. I don't make friends with liars, thieves or cheats.
12-05-2014 | 04:03 PM
#974
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,967
Likes: 0
Well, just a refresh to update the situation.
Apparently Glassker (or Parkass, if you choose) has softened his "wants" just a tad, so it would seem that the strategy of some that the best approach was for the lazy pilots to immediately roll over for a good belly rub would have left value on the table and has proven at least at this point to be wrong. The 2-hour RSV callout has been retracted and substituted with industry comparable language of "prompt". The agreement to a 5:10 minimum day upon PBS activation and a one year LOS bump for furloughees. It's minimal movement at this time, but it is movement. APA has been floating balloons to see how the membership feels with mixed reviews, mostly in the negative although apparently the majority at the ORD domicile meeting of 8-10% of its pilots was reported to have stood up and cheered.
The BOD remains split, but clearly both sides want an out. I expect a few additional minor sweeteners and then the BOD will get just enough to punt to the pilots. THAT is where the wildcard will exist. It's going to be a tough breakdown again, IMO. Many senior (and U East) will vote yes and virtually all the furloughees will vote no. Then, there are the two ends of the bell curve with the "Delta or bust" crowd on one side and the "can we just get through this without being hit" crowd on the other. The middle of the bell can go either way. Tough to tell the real percentages there. I predict that aside from a deal that's passed to the pilots, a fairly close vote with the deciding victor in the approximate 55% range. That is based on a final product only slightly sweetened from what's presently known to be on the table.
Of course, the APA is good at packaging marginal deals to their pilots, so perhaps the deciding factor will be their salesmanship ?
Apparently Glassker (or Parkass, if you choose
) has softened his "wants" just a tad, so it would seem that the strategy of some that the best approach was for the lazy pilots to immediately roll over for a good belly rub would have left value on the table and has proven at least at this point to be wrong. The 2-hour RSV callout has been retracted and substituted with industry comparable language of "prompt". The agreement to a 5:10 minimum day upon PBS activation and a one year LOS bump for furloughees. It's minimal movement at this time, but it is movement. APA has been floating balloons to see how the membership feels with mixed reviews, mostly in the negative although apparently the majority at the ORD domicile meeting of 8-10% of its pilots was reported to have stood up and cheered.The BOD remains split, but clearly both sides want an out. I expect a few additional minor sweeteners and then the BOD will get just enough to punt to the pilots. THAT is where the wildcard will exist. It's going to be a tough breakdown again, IMO. Many senior (and U East) will vote yes and virtually all the furloughees will vote no. Then, there are the two ends of the bell curve with the "Delta or bust" crowd on one side and the "can we just get through this without being hit" crowd on the other. The middle of the bell can go either way. Tough to tell the real percentages there. I predict that aside from a deal that's passed to the pilots, a fairly close vote with the deciding victor in the approximate 55% range. That is based on a final product only slightly sweetened from what's presently known to be on the table.
Of course, the APA is good at packaging marginal deals to their pilots, so perhaps the deciding factor will be their salesmanship ?
It is an average duty period. If you fly a three day red eye with two duty periods (we have tons of them) then you get 10:10 for a three day. If you fly a three day with three legs on the first day with a 32 hour sit in BUF, or SYR, or MEM, or EWR, etc. etc. with three legs on the last day, you get paid 10:10 for a three day (yes we have lots of them too, but they currently pay 14:45 because of duty rigs which seem to go away with the current proposal). We also have four days with a 32 hour sit and only three duty periods... yes welcome to 15:30 for a 4-day trip.
Right now we have many block holders working 21-24 days to get 80 hours. If we had 5:00 min calendar day every block holder would only work 16 calendar days to get 80 hours. With min average duty period, many block holders will work about a whole week longer every month.
12-05-2014 | 04:30 PM
#975
Banned
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
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Read carefully... The 5:10 is not a daily minimum.
It is an average duty period. If you fly a three day red eye with two duty periods (we have tons of them) then you get 10:10 for a three day. If you fly a three day with three legs on the first day with a 32 hour sit in BUF, or SYR, or MEM, or EWR, etc. etc. with three legs on the last day, you get paid 10:10 for a three day (yes we have lots of them too, but they currently pay 14:45 because of duty rigs which seem to go away with the current proposal). We also have four days with a 32 hour sit and only three duty periods... yes welcome to 15:30 for a 4-day trip.
Right now we have many block holders working 21-24 days to get 80 hours. If we had 5:00 min calendar day every block holder would only work 16 calendar days to get 80 hours. With min average duty period, many block holders will work about a whole week longer every month.
It is an average duty period. If you fly a three day red eye with two duty periods (we have tons of them) then you get 10:10 for a three day. If you fly a three day with three legs on the first day with a 32 hour sit in BUF, or SYR, or MEM, or EWR, etc. etc. with three legs on the last day, you get paid 10:10 for a three day (yes we have lots of them too, but they currently pay 14:45 because of duty rigs which seem to go away with the current proposal). We also have four days with a 32 hour sit and only three duty periods... yes welcome to 15:30 for a 4-day trip.
Right now we have many block holders working 21-24 days to get 80 hours. If we had 5:00 min calendar day every block holder would only work 16 calendar days to get 80 hours. With min average duty period, many block holders will work about a whole week longer every month.
Last edited by eaglefly; 12-05-2014 at 04:41 PM.
12-05-2014 | 07:02 PM
#976
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,949
Likes: 9
^^^ exactly. Funny how they keep slipping the deadlines and suddenly coming off the peg with items that were previously crossed out as "non negotiable." These actions speak volumes about their true intent.
Still some negotiating left to be done. The latest offer still falls well short but the company is starting to realize that we're not going to roll over and blindly accept their substandard proposals, and as we approach the very thing they love to threaten with - arbitration - they are going to have to scramble to avoid it.
As I've been saying all along, the company loses a lot more in arbitration than we do. Apparently there are more than a few items the company wants that they won't get in arbitration.
I agree that a deal will be reached...hopefully a good deal that we can pass. But I believe that's only possible by taking it all the way down to the wire. Therein lies our leverage. We should be hearing something soon, otherwise it's going to be another mad scramble by the company to "kick the can" merrily through Christmas.
Still some negotiating left to be done. The latest offer still falls well short but the company is starting to realize that we're not going to roll over and blindly accept their substandard proposals, and as we approach the very thing they love to threaten with - arbitration - they are going to have to scramble to avoid it.
As I've been saying all along, the company loses a lot more in arbitration than we do. Apparently there are more than a few items the company wants that they won't get in arbitration.
I agree that a deal will be reached...hopefully a good deal that we can pass. But I believe that's only possible by taking it all the way down to the wire. Therein lies our leverage. We should be hearing something soon, otherwise it's going to be another mad scramble by the company to "kick the can" merrily through Christmas.
12-06-2014 | 05:29 AM
#977
Banned
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
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I've read that carefully.......BEFORE I posted the update. Another pointed the same thing out and I clarified my statement which was stated in error (I knew the difference, but stated it incorrectly). The point wasn't the 5:10 issue (one that doesn't show up anyway, even as a duty period as opposed to a calander day), it was the fact that Parker IS willing to negotiate as that exactly what he's doing. Now that we've established that, the only question is how far ?
Section should read........ (one that doesn't show up anyway, even as a duty period as opposed to a calendar day until PBS begins).
12-06-2014 | 05:49 AM
#978
Banned
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
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^^^ exactly. Funny how they keep slipping the deadlines and suddenly coming off the peg with items that were previously crossed out as "non negotiable." These actions speak volumes about their true intent.
Still some negotiating left to be done. The latest offer still falls well short but the company is starting to realize that we're not going to roll over and blindly accept their substandard proposals, and as we approach the very thing they love to threaten with - arbitration - they are going to have to scramble to avoid it.
As I've been saying all along, the company loses a lot more in arbitration than we do. Apparently there are more than a few items the company wants that they won't get in arbitration.
I agree that a deal will be reached...hopefully a good deal that we can pass. But I believe that's only possible by taking it all the way down to the wire. Therein lies our leverage. We should be hearing something soon, otherwise it's going to be another mad scramble by the company to "kick the can" merrily through Christmas.
Still some negotiating left to be done. The latest offer still falls well short but the company is starting to realize that we're not going to roll over and blindly accept their substandard proposals, and as we approach the very thing they love to threaten with - arbitration - they are going to have to scramble to avoid it.
As I've been saying all along, the company loses a lot more in arbitration than we do. Apparently there are more than a few items the company wants that they won't get in arbitration.
I agree that a deal will be reached...hopefully a good deal that we can pass. But I believe that's only possible by taking it all the way down to the wire. Therein lies our leverage. We should be hearing something soon, otherwise it's going to be another mad scramble by the company to "kick the can" merrily through Christmas.
APA needs to stop their milquetoast approach when dealing with the serpent.
Any claims of "Section 6" being a relationship factor here are irrelevant and simply an excuse for intransigence. EVERYTHING is negotiable. Managements and unions negotiate Letters-of-Agreement (LOA) that affect contractual items all the time outside section 6. By end of next week, we need to commit to one direction or the other.
12-06-2014 | 05:54 AM
#979
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 5,299
Likes: 0
From: A320 Capt
Christmas can-kicking is possible, even likely. APA has previously made a "mid-December" (end of this coming week) schedule in the timeline, but also has muddied that water by saying they are willing to negotiate as long as Parker is. The strategy for Parker may be to spoon feed extremely minor items, yet not proffer arbitration (or threaten its imminence) until after the holidays thus leading the APA down a primrose path. It's another one of the bad places they've put themselves in with regard to leverage and strategy. The are still playing by Parker and Glasses rules. If Glassker isn't willing to make some meaningful changes by the end of next week, APA needs to disengage and make a statement indicating Glassker isn't willing to make any meaningful changes and that they are awaiting an imminent announcement by Glassker of their intention to proffer arbitration. If they proffer, fine. If they don't, well...............that says A LOT about their interest in it.
APA needs to stop their milquetoast approach when dealing with the serpent.
Any claims of "Section 6" being a relationship factor here are irrelevant and simply an excuse for intransigence. EVERYTHING is negotiable. Managements and unions negotiate Letters-of-Agreement (LOA) that affect contractual items all the time outside section 6. By end of next week, we need to commit to one direction or the other.
APA needs to stop their milquetoast approach when dealing with the serpent.
Any claims of "Section 6" being a relationship factor here are irrelevant and simply an excuse for intransigence. EVERYTHING is negotiable. Managements and unions negotiate Letters-of-Agreement (LOA) that affect contractual items all the time outside section 6. By end of next week, we need to commit to one direction or the other.
12-07-2014 | 05:33 AM
#980
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,238
Likes: 0
Back in "Realville", all is sure rosy on the Pilot Union front:
For guys with advanced degrees here at American, they wouldn't know what ROIC is. They think it means ROCK, as in throwing it....like tantrums. If they threaten strike (which they won't) they'll simply drive a wedge between them and the rest of the employees.
Southwest Pilots File for NMB Mediation in Contract Negotiations -- DALLAS, Nov. 20, 2014 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ --
"DALLAS, Nov. 20, 2014 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- In order to facilitate movement in contract negotiations, the Southwest Airlines Pilots' Association (SWAPA) today officially filed for mediation with the National Mediation Board (NMB), the federal agency that oversees contract negotiations in the airline industry. After two-plus years of negotiations both sides are currently too far apart to realistically expect an agreement outside of a mediated process.
"This is certainly not a step either side wants to take during negotiations, and certainly not a typical step in the pilot and management relationship at Southwest Airlines," said Mark Richardson, SWAPA President. "But times have certainly changed."
SWAPA has focused their negotiations on improvements in areas that address the airline's flat fleet growth, stagnant career advancement, and compensation. Over the past four years the pilots have sacrificed when asked by the Company. This facilitated Southwest reaching their financial goals, including a stated goal of 15 percent ROIC. Those goals have been accomplished, and furthered, with an announced ROIC total of 19 percent for the trailing 12 months, and a Wall Street expected 21 percent ROIC for fiscal year 2014. Southwest Airlines is on pace to enjoy almost $2.5 billion in operating profit for 2014.
"Our asks continue to be reasonable so that our highly productive pilots can enjoy marginal improvements in their schedule, pay, and especially retirement – an area where Southwest pilots lag significantly compared to our peers at other airlines," continued Richardson. "Filing for mediation is the next step in the process toward a new contract. We are trying to avoid the destructive and combative relationships that have plagued our industry."
SWAPA becomes the third Southwest Airlines labor group to request national mediation in order to finalize a new contract in this current round of negotiations.
Located in Dallas, Texas, the Southwest Airlines Pilots' Association (SWAPA) is a non-profit employee organization representing the more than 7,500 pilots of Southwest Airlines and 500 pilots of AirTran Airways. SWAPA works to provide a secure and rewarding career for Southwest pilots and their families through negotiating contracts, defending contractual rights and actively promoting professionalism and safety. For more information on the Southwest Airlines Pilots' Association, visit SWAPA.
SOURCE Southwest Airlines Pilots' Association
"This is certainly not a step either side wants to take during negotiations, and certainly not a typical step in the pilot and management relationship at Southwest Airlines," said Mark Richardson, SWAPA President. "But times have certainly changed."
SWAPA has focused their negotiations on improvements in areas that address the airline's flat fleet growth, stagnant career advancement, and compensation. Over the past four years the pilots have sacrificed when asked by the Company. This facilitated Southwest reaching their financial goals, including a stated goal of 15 percent ROIC. Those goals have been accomplished, and furthered, with an announced ROIC total of 19 percent for the trailing 12 months, and a Wall Street expected 21 percent ROIC for fiscal year 2014. Southwest Airlines is on pace to enjoy almost $2.5 billion in operating profit for 2014.
"Our asks continue to be reasonable so that our highly productive pilots can enjoy marginal improvements in their schedule, pay, and especially retirement – an area where Southwest pilots lag significantly compared to our peers at other airlines," continued Richardson. "Filing for mediation is the next step in the process toward a new contract. We are trying to avoid the destructive and combative relationships that have plagued our industry."
SWAPA becomes the third Southwest Airlines labor group to request national mediation in order to finalize a new contract in this current round of negotiations.
Located in Dallas, Texas, the Southwest Airlines Pilots' Association (SWAPA) is a non-profit employee organization representing the more than 7,500 pilots of Southwest Airlines and 500 pilots of AirTran Airways. SWAPA works to provide a secure and rewarding career for Southwest pilots and their families through negotiating contracts, defending contractual rights and actively promoting professionalism and safety. For more information on the Southwest Airlines Pilots' Association, visit SWAPA.
SOURCE Southwest Airlines Pilots' Association
Southwest Pilots File for NMB Mediation in Contract Negotiations -- DALLAS, Nov. 20, 2014 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ --
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