Airline Pilot Central Forums - Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?

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- - Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delta/36912-any-latest-greatest-about-delta.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 1331497)

As for an "Angel" in High School, the Air Force picked Kelly Flynn out my High School homeroom class over me :eek:

Maybe you should have been voted "Miss Lassiter High School." Things may have been different for you. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 1331420)

No it's not an ALPA guy tactic. What I am trying to do is when having a concern use the correct word usage and point to the correct document and correct corrective action. The company fufilled their responsibility to the exclusive agent (ALPA) under the rla. The company did not violate our exclusivity as defined by the rla or the PWA. It's I'd not something that can be taken to grievance. Now if there is in fact a section of the PWA that is violated that is a different story. Exclusivity was not.

First off - that's an ALPA guy tactic. Trust me - I know. And I'm not talking about Delta pilots having a grievance. I've told you in two posts now that we have no recourse, contractual or otherwise to stop the bridge building. However - with all the misinformation floating around about the bridge program and whether or not it's an interview, or a guaranteed job (this confusion driven by ALPA's communication department, not my own agenda) the Pinnacle Pilots could, theoretically, file a grievance against Pinnacle, and hence Delta, if not enough of their pilots were hired by Delta. They negotiated, and have negotiating history that will indicate that their overstaffing will be partially solved through this bridge program. If that is not the case, they will file a grievance. Tom Wychor (an ALPA guy) was sneaky enough to not even deal directly with OUR company with OUR MEC in the room. What makes you think he wouldn't pursue this issue through those means?

Pushing the lack of common experience issue with pilots just means you're failing the first and second task of an ALPA volunteer. LISTENING and UNDERSTANDING. Once you do those two things properly then you can EDUCATE me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1331493)

Nice try, I was a five year B-Scaler.

OK, good. You get exactly how B-scalers felt about it. Why then are you so surprised to see today's C-scalers upset about outsourcing and their union's role in continuing it? Moving it off property doesn't make it better, it makes it worse by 1) destroying longevity 2) destroying representational unity. The B-scalers could at least legitimately petition their union to end the B-scale. Anytime I speak up about outsourcing I'm told to go play in the regional sandbox.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1331488)

If you haven't been paying attention, I will recap. I support the Pinnacle pilots bridge agreement and I welcome them to Delta. I don't think they are unworthy of being Delta pilots and if there are a few that don't fit into Delta's culture then Delta's HR department will make that decision and not me. They have been doing that for many, many years without my help and I am sure they can struggle on without me.

My point was that I am tired of hearing guys that got their experience in the civilian side tell me I don't understand because military guys have it so easy. Somehow they assume that I graduated from high school and then an angel came down from heaven and handed me a diploma, a set of military wings, and my Delta uniform. They say I can't understand the angst of working through the civilian ranks to get to Delta.

Flying in the military was difficult and dangerous. The washout rate in UPT is close to 40% or at least it was when I was there. Within three weeks of me showing up at my pilot training base there was a fatal accident. We had about 150 pilots at the last base I was assigned to and there were four fatal accidents in 2.5 years. My life was spent at 100 feet above the ground and 480 KIAS doing high g maneuvering in terrain. I understand angst in the flying world.

I don't support the contention that some military pilots have that civilian pilots are weak and unworthy. I also bristle at the suggestion that I had it easy because I went into the military. Finally, I don't understand how settling old grudges between RJ pilot groups becomes the top priority of the Delta MEC.

The Pinnacle pilots are in a terrible spot due to no fault of their own, their management was incompetent and left them with two terrible choices. If they get a hand up to get a job at Delta to relieve a portion of that suffering then I support it. It just seems to be the human thing to do.

While I don't understand your angst, you probably don't understand mine either. Where I learned to fly, there were fatal accidents as well. Midairs, unexplained losses of control, freak accidents. So even though we were at 1000' AGL at 110kts, don't tell me I didn't learn a thing or two about life, or wash out rates. The point that needs to be made is that if you fit like a square peg in a round hole when you show up to interview, it doesn't matter AT ALL what you did to get to that point. You are NOT going to work in our unique culture (and the culture here is unique). I don't see why you keep bringing up the old grudge issue either. I want what you want - the best pilots for the job. If I believe the best way to go about that is to leave Pilot Selection solely to the task, then apparently we just have to agree to disagree.

I agree that what happened to Pinnacle is unprecedented and terrible for the pilots and their families. We probably all know someone there and wish them the best. So if the company decides this is the best solution, then so be it - but it wouldn't be MY decision if I had it to make it myself. In addition I feel the exclusion of the Delta MEC in the decision making process will only lead to unforeseen problems in the future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 1331421)

Do not throw around a term like that when you use it incorrectly. A B Scale is the same work for the same job. Ie different pay on the 767 FO seat for two different pilots. It's not less pay on different seats. Don't muddy the waters

Never said I was a B-scaler. I was comparing the attitudes of today's regional pilots, which alfa said he found so surprising, to the attitudes of yesterday's B-scalers. I often call today's outsourcing scheme a C-scale, because yes it's different...but not that much. The idea is exactly the same. Have newer pilots work cheaper to subsidize existing pilots payrates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1331488)

If you haven't been paying attention, I will recap. I support the Pinnacle pilots bridge agreement and I welcome them to Delta. I don't think they are unworthy of being Delta pilots and if there are a few that don't fit into Delta's culture then Delta's HR department will make that decision and not me. They have been doing that for many, many years without my help and I am sure they can struggle on without me.

My point was that I am tired of hearing guys that got their experience in the civilian side tell me I don't understand because military guys have it so easy. Somehow they assume that I graduated from high school and then an angel came down from heaven and handed me a diploma, a set of military wings, and my Delta uniform. They say I can't understand the angst of working through the civilian ranks to get to Delta.

Flying in the military was difficult and dangerous. The washout rate in UPT is close to 40% or at least it was when I was there. Within three weeks of me showing up at my pilot training base there was a fatal accident. We had about 150 pilots at the last base I was assigned to and there were four fatal accidents in 2.5 years. My life was spent at 100 feet above the ground and 480 KIAS doing high g maneuvering in terrain. I understand angst in the flying world.

I don't support the contention that some military pilots have that civilian pilots are weak and unworthy. I also bristle at the suggestion that I had it easy because I went into the military. Finally, I don't understand how settling old grudges between RJ pilot groups becomes the top priority of the Delta MEC.

The Pinnacle pilots are in a terrible spot due to no fault of their own, their management was incompetent and left them with two terrible choices. If they get a hand up to get a job at Delta to relieve a portion of that suffering then I support it. It just seems to be the human thing to do.

Alfa,

I do not think Bar is saying the military guys have it easy. Hell, my AOCS class started out with 77 and graduated 43, all before flying even began. Most on here know the military guys have paid their dues.

As a former military Aviator there are many things about this industry that I don't understand as well as I would like to - especially all the nuances of "Regional vs Mainline" relationship and all that goes with it.

I for one appreciate a well rounded discussion and hope to learn a few things along with occasionally wiping some coffee off of my computer screen.

Scoop :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JungleBus (Post 1331613)

I think your insinuation that your lower pay is what pads my pockets is what makes most guys uneasy about your philosophy on the matter. Delta is making ridiculous amount of money and could afford to pay their contractors enough to pay you at the rates in our contract. So while I was just about to tell you I agree with you, I have to call you out on that. You aren't subsidizing me. The work we're doing here is subsidizing me. The work you're doing and what you're being paid for to do it is the result of negotiations which took place at very high levels of our respective companies.

However - I agree with you that like work should mean like pay, and I would be willing to help subsidize a raise for you guys if I could. Positive wage pressure from the bottom certainly couldn't hurt me in the long run. Call it like it is around ACL though otherwise he gets fussy. You're an affiliate pilot of a permitted aircraft type earning a rate that is less than the contractually agreed upon rate that would be paid if the aircraft was captured under the Delta PWA. A APOAPATEARTILTTCAUDTWBPITAWCUTDP - Scale. If you please.

But - unfortunately, our MEC hates you, so we refuse to help. So much for one level of safety, huh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JungleBus (Post 1331613)

You hit the nail on the head...I would like to add that Delta management essentially dangled this new carrot for the Pinacle pilots in this 7 year agreement that if you will suck it up and work for peanuts now that the Delta mainline career with a guaranteed interview will more than compensate for you short term loss in pay now! Alpa national thinks they are doing these guys a favor but are essentially eroding their careers.

Sailor Jerry,

Your head is in the right place, but Jungle Bus is correct.

ALPA does not advertise the fact it sells pilot jobs and that "credit" is used to cross collateralize mainline pay. The public admissions of this practice are few and far between. The only references I've been able to find in public are:

Testimony of Delta negotiators to the bankruptcy court where "credits" were exchanged for relaxed scope language. Proposals and counter proposals for outsourcing were exchanged for credits which were used to offset management's concessionary demands. (reference bankruptcy negotiation transcripts)
The NWA MEC was much more candid in their Zip Line publications where they bragged they were the first to get credits for relaxed scope. (reference ZIPLINE 10-08)
Lee Moak's roadshow to the LEC meetings explained why outsourcing the 76 seat flying was good for Delta pilots. His contention was that outsourcing makes Delta more profitable and Delta pilots can negotiate higher wages and working conditions if we allow outsourcing. (as far as I know there are no public recordings of these briefings)

Jungle Bus mixes his terms a bit. Outsourced flying is not a "B-Scale." To clarify those definitions:

B-Scale is when employees who do the identical work, on identical equipment, are paid significantly less as a result of being hired after the preferred group of pilots. B Scale pilots have seniority numbers, representational rights and are accruing longevity.
A DCI carrier pilot does not enjoy a seniority number, representational rights, or longevity at Delta. Generally, they are operating completely different equipment than the mainline equipment.

If we were to recover some RJ type equipment, it would probably pay much less than our 717 rates. But, it would not be a "B-Scale." Lower pay for less productive equipment is always the way we have done things and every one understands why a 747 / 777 pays more than a 717.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SailorJerry (Post 1331621)

You're right. You guys are 100% deserving of your payrates and more based on nothing other than the excellent, safe service you provide to the company and its customers. I personally don't think that ultra-cheap regional feed, and all that implies, is necessary to pay DAL pilots industry-leading wages.

But what I think doesn't really matter - it's what people like Richard Anderson & Ed Bastian think. And they've been pretty forthright in stating that the reason they can justify paying DAL pilots what they do is the value DALPA has provided the company with flexibility on outsourcing - top and bottom end (as well as productivity enhancements). Lee Moak argued the same thing privately and publicly, and he's now our union's president. He's gone so far as to publicly mock unions that did not provide this same amount of flexibility (ie pre-BK APA).