|
|
Originally Posted by Wingnutdal
(Post 1663822)
What are people's thoughts on including a 3% per year raise as a tag on at the end of the contract. Just in case it does take 5 years to hash out a new agreement, maybe we wouldn't feel pressure to take a substandard (or not as good as the group wanted) deal.
|
Originally Posted by newKnow
(Post 1663816)
As of now, because you won't address follow up questions, you have been exposed for posting opinions that are based on obsolete data, then stating them as fact.
It's not normally a horrible offense. But, when you do it to minimize the hard work your pilot group and your fellow employees have done over the years to help make Delta the profitable & successful airline that it is today, it comes off pretty bad. |
Originally Posted by orvil
(Post 1663749)
Gentlemen,
You have done a great job. Sailing Fun has been exposed and humiliated. It's Friday, how about some Underboob or at least some cheerleader pictures? (I would post some, but I've already been counseled for this activity.) Orvil, I don't agree with your post. Sailing is putting out good information as usual, although I disagree with his take on it. He is being challenged as he should be, but why make disagreement a personal issue? In my opinion the "efficiency" issue is front and center in management's playbook for C2015, that it why it is good information. Sailing is previewing an argument we will hear a lot about, "We the Delta Pilot group are inefficient." I and others have repeatedly challenged this by pointing out there are many ways to define efficiency and if we let management define the issues as they see fit we will not do well. Where I have trouble with Sailing on this issue is that he seems to accept block hours as the defining metric of pilot group efficiency. It is definitely "a" measure of productivity but so are a lot of other metrics. I say "seems to accept" because he has not yet responded on this specific point. I have brought up the issue of revenue produced per Pilot as a measure of Pilot productivity. George has brought up the CASM metric as another viable metric. The fact that we are discussing this now may better enable us as a Pilot group to prepare our response when management makes these arguments as they surely will. In a related issue sick time usage will also surely be a lively topic in C2015. Just as we should not let management define Pilot productivity as block hours per Pilot, we should not let management directly compare our sick time usage with other Pilot groups that have a sick bank. Scoop |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 1663828)
What obsolete data. The data I posted is the most current available. The 2013 data should be out soon. I am sure when that's out you will discount it also.
Please tell me you are NOT defending 2012 industry data as not obsolete. :confused: |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 1663778)
Sadly the letters were long ago and not saved. The furlough issue was simple. I wrote a letter to RA stating that the furloughs were political at the time and game changing in history of Delta Airlines. I further added that toying with people's lives was a new low at Delta. I finished by stating I advocated taking the demanded 5% paycut and having the union use it to pay the furloughed pilots.
I got to have a personal chat with the CEO. I had also followed that up with a similar letter to the VP of flight ops which got me a personal call at my reserve squadron and another invite to Atlanta. The last time I wrote a letter stating the rest seat change on the ER was a clear statement by Delta they were willing to trade revenue for safety. Another Atlanta invite. This is the issue respond to? :confused: You've had several guys take time to respond to your assertion that Delta is among the least efficient airlines and you respond to the challenge that your job was threatened by the CEO. Thanks for sticking you neck out back then. But, what about the other questions? Can you at least respond to georgetg? He makes a good case that Delta pilots should be getting paid more than the other airlines. It's way over my head, but it seems like he put a lot of work into it.
Originally Posted by georgetg
(Post 1663470)
Block hours per pilot isn't a measure of efficiency in this business...
The widgets we make are called ASMs The cost to make the widgets is CASM Delta's CASM is indeed higher than Southwest's CASM. But to effectively measure pilot productivity we need to measure the pilot portion of CASM. Guess what we are still more efficient as Southwest when it comes to the pilot portion of production. Yes, that's right, the pilot portion of CASM at Delta is lower than the pilot portion of CASM at Southwest. Why is this? Let's look at "digging" The workers at company A produce 25 billable digging hours per week. The workers at company B produce 20 billable digging hours per week. Clearly the workers at company A are more efficient, right? If you measure billable digging hours you'd be right. What if I told you the workers at company A use a shovel and the workers at company B use a Caterpillar D9. Now who is more efficient? Does it matter if Company B pays their D9 drivers more than the shovel wielders at company A? So yes, using sailings "metric" of block hours, we are less productive than the others. But using the metric based on the currency the company accountants use - ASM - we are not. And that's the one that matters... Cheers George Extra credit homework for sailing: What is the pilot portion of CASM at Delta, what is it at WN? How many ASMs are produced per pilot block hour at Delta, how many at WN? |
Originally Posted by Sink r8
(Post 1663793)
1) Marginalize extreme positions. Take out the people that don't care about sound and solid methods, or realistic expectations, but sit there and make demands with no clear foundation, or some emotional basis that no longer applies. Also take out the people that, instead of helping develop sound, solid methods, keep insinuating there is no sound, solid method for achieving anything, and just sit there, postulating on the negatives.
2) Develop a consensus on what the share of revenue needs to be, considering the fact that Delta is running out of places to hide money (extra retirement funding, extra debt repayments, superfluous stock buy-backs, dividends, shifting margin targets from 8-10%, now to 15%, etc.), for the Delta pilots, considering our sacrifices, and our ongoing contributions. Divorce all such calculations from a) some over-romanticized past contract at a company that actually no longer exists, and b) from all the fearful, tearful arguments that anything we ask for is too much. Make a credible, sound argument for a reasonable number that will allow the company to make respectable margins, while we bring home the share of the bacon our family deserves. This share may be more, less, or the same that some contract or other, but the point is that we benchmark against what is rightfully ours, without failing to also reward other constituencies in a balanced manner. 3) Hold out for the number in 2, above, and negotiate. 4) Determine through surveys how the pilot group wants the number in 2, above, to be distributed. 5) Continue to hold out for the number in 2, above. 6) Change strategies and tactics as needed, until we achieve the number in 2, above. 7) Once we attain the number in 2, above (not the moon and the stars, not a pitiful fear-induced number), ratify a TA, and move forward. How to Play a Flute: You blow in one end and move your fingers up and down the other. How to Prevent All Diseases in the World: Become a doctor and discover a marvelous cure for something. When the world finally sits up and takes notice of you, you can jolly-well tell them what to do and make sure they get everything right so that there'll never be diseases again. |
Originally Posted by gzsg
(Post 1663769)
Date of signing May 2004 Delta hourly rates plus 3%. 5% per year after that.
3 year duration. Per diem $2.95/$3.95 plus .10 per year 44 days of vacation UAL match Air tight Improved JV language with rapid and severe penalties. $4000 annual company contribution to medical savings account. 4:30 vacation day and training day. Restoration of C2012 profit sharing reduction. I admit this is not "historic" but this is the very minimum. |
Originally Posted by scambo1
(Post 1663835)
Sailing,
Please tell me you are NOT defending 2012 industry data as not obsolete. :confused: |
New ER program out for non contract employees. Might be worth a call to your reps to see if it can be extended to pilots. They might consider it if they can meter those early outs.
|
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 1663828)
What obsolete data. The data I posted is the most current available. The 2013 data should be out soon. I am sure when that's out you will discount it also.
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 1663308)
I agree the data is old however the items you are discussing should make them more not less efficient going forward.
The only real competitor we have that was officially merged back then was United. But, they didn't have their seniority list, they were operating separately, and their management was playing one side against the other. Your data is going to be in flux for a while until everything gets sorted out. Why not compare the other airlines of 2012 to the Delta and Northwest data from 2008? It's the same thing. Most current? Ok. But, until you prove otherwise, it still seems to be horribly obsolete. As I pointed out before, IMO, if Delta brought that 2012 data to the NMB to use against us in negotiations, DALPA would tear it apart. |
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:44 PM. |
|
Website Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands