Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-30-2011 | 04:03 AM
Can't abide NAI
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From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Carl, would you characterize the NWA merger as the back door?
As a union member and proponent for a more aggressive representational entity can you clearly delineate which pilots we might merge with that you feel deserve a merger? Would you wait for management to tell you who THEY wanted, or would your union represent pilots? What if management decided they wanted to flush your senior keester to the street while keeping us junior (cheaper) guys? How would you feel about starting over at age ... ?
Do you think your airline hiring replacement pilots at the "regional" while simultaneously furloughing mainline pilots is acceptable?
Do you consider yourself a bigot?
Carl, I like you, but you are a representational bigot. You believe some pilots deserve representation while others do not. You base this on your prejudice, with your guess as to every regional pilot having applied for a major job and having been turned down. Apparently you have forgotten:
The answer is also clear. We need to stop outsourcing by either cutting the contracts, not renewing them, or making them all Delta pilots. The most economically viable plan (and thus the most likely to succeed) is in our merger and fragmentation policies. We could have simply flushed the NWA pilots (as your Reps accused us of trying to do). Aren't you glad your union provided you the same representation it did Delta pilots?
As a union member and proponent for a more aggressive representational entity can you clearly delineate which pilots we might merge with that you feel deserve a merger? Would you wait for management to tell you who THEY wanted, or would your union represent pilots? What if management decided they wanted to flush your senior keester to the street while keeping us junior (cheaper) guys? How would you feel about starting over at age ... ?
Do you think your airline hiring replacement pilots at the "regional" while simultaneously furloughing mainline pilots is acceptable?
Do you consider yourself a bigot?
Carl, I like you, but you are a representational bigot. You believe some pilots deserve representation while others do not. You base this on your prejudice, with your guess as to every regional pilot having applied for a major job and having been turned down. Apparently you have forgotten:
- Since we outsourced half our flying, there are not as many "major" jobs
- The "majors" have shrunk to the point what we used to call regionals are now majors. We are considered a "Legacy" carrier
- As the regionals became majors (including Southwest and Republic) their pay and working conditions have improved to the point for many people there is no financial pay back for having to start over ... (for instance, as your contract and equipment stood in 2007, the numbers said there was scant difference between NWA and staying put at my regional)
- Age 65 resulted in tremendous stagnation, we've only hired around 1,000 pilots in the last decade. (our decision to kick Compass out was nearly 50% of Delta hiring in the last ten years!)
The answer is also clear. We need to stop outsourcing by either cutting the contracts, not renewing them, or making them all Delta pilots. The most economically viable plan (and thus the most likely to succeed) is in our merger and fragmentation policies. We could have simply flushed the NWA pilots (as your Reps accused us of trying to do). Aren't you glad your union provided you the same representation it did Delta pilots?
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 05-30-2011 at 04:22 AM.
05-30-2011 | 04:05 AM
Can't abide NAI
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From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Delta Air Elite is a violation of our contract. Republic holdings is something you don't like but not a violation of the contract. Even if it were a violation and we won in the grievance process it would not have any major impact on pilot manning at Delta. Arbitrators are always sensitive to the operations of the airlines. They would give management a time frame to come into compliance with their ruling. Probably 12 months or so. Management would simply move all those RJ's to other carriers. It would take them a matter of days to rehire outsourced lift. They would have to end up paying out a bunch of cash to Republic to cancel the contract however the airframes would still be flying for Delta without Delta pilots.
Something had to be done about Delta Private Jets. It will be interesting to see what the outcome will be. Obviously we need to avoid the situation that is going on with Thomas Cook.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 05-30-2011 at 04:27 AM.
05-30-2011 | 04:29 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
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From: Light Chop
Delta Air Elite is a violation of our contract. Republic holdings is something you don't like but not a violation of the contract. Even if it were a violation and we won in the grievance process it would not have any major impact on pilot manning at Delta. Arbitrators are always sensitive to the operations of the airlines. They would give management a time frame to come into compliance with their ruling. Probably 12 months or so. Management would simply move all those RJ's to other carriers. It would take them a matter of days to rehire outsourced lift. They would have to end up paying out a bunch of cash to Republic to cancel the contract however the airframes would still be flying for Delta without Delta pilots.
But what if RAH is found to be STS?
And we know the aircraft will be transferred to another regional if RAH was kicked out, but, isn't it more important to end the funding of our competition such that money for Shuttle/CHQ doesn't go to feed Frontier nor will money to Skywest/ASA go to feed their aspirations?
Great post.
05-30-2011 | 04:46 AM
Gets Weekends Off
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...................................
05-30-2011 | 04:51 AM
Gets Weekends Off
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Like what? Flying larger aircraft; isn't that for higher pay? Better schedule; isn't that for higher pay(work less for the same or more)? A more stable carrier; isn't that for maintaining pay? A better retirement; isn't that for higher pay?
All career expectations are in forms of compensation which have a monetary value assigned to them. Why does Southwest have so many applications from Delta pilots?
I'm not trying to be a jerk I'm just curious what the other forms are?
All career expectations are in forms of compensation which have a monetary value assigned to them. Why does Southwest have so many applications from Delta pilots?
I'm not trying to be a jerk I'm just curious what the other forms are?
I think SWA is a great choice of airline to work for and now they set the bar...I highly doubt many Legacy pilots desire to start at the bottom of a SWA/AirTran seniority list. Those famous 6 year upgrades are LONG gone!!
However, please feel free to "educate" me!!
05-30-2011 | 04:53 AM
No longer cares
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From: 767er Captain
I've thought the exact same thing for years.
If the airline can't afford to pay, the airline does not need to exist. I personally think longevity pay should be taken away. I don't think it's right that pilots make different amounts of money flying the exact same plane at the exact same airline. I make close to $100/hour while a new hire makes around $55/hour to do the exact same job. Our maximum pay on the aircraft should be the pay for everyone. Then switching airlines would not be so hard financially on us. As it is now, the bigger aircraft pay more money. Let pilots use their seniority to bid to bigger aircraft thus making more money. Let me be clear. In my system, the pay is based on our current maximum pay scales. I don't want anyone to take a pay cut. I want the bottom guys brought up. It would take a real union to make this happen. We don't have that.
If the airline can't afford to pay, the airline does not need to exist. I personally think longevity pay should be taken away. I don't think it's right that pilots make different amounts of money flying the exact same plane at the exact same airline. I make close to $100/hour while a new hire makes around $55/hour to do the exact same job. Our maximum pay on the aircraft should be the pay for everyone. Then switching airlines would not be so hard financially on us. As it is now, the bigger aircraft pay more money. Let pilots use their seniority to bid to bigger aircraft thus making more money. Let me be clear. In my system, the pay is based on our current maximum pay scales. I don't want anyone to take a pay cut. I want the bottom guys brought up. It would take a real union to make this happen. We don't have that.
Portable seniority.. uh.. no.
Exact same pay for everyone? really? Give me a few examples of where anyone that does "exactly the same job" who is a new hire makes the same coin as someone that has been around for 20 years.. Take your time. Soviet Russia doesn't count...
05-30-2011 | 04:55 AM
No longer cares
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From: 767er Captain
The single bigggest problem we have always had in this career field is, there is zero sideways mobility.
When you get hired at a Major, and get your seniority number, you are pretty much locked into that one airline the rest of your carreer, unless they go under, ask anyone at Eastern, Pan Am, TWA, Braniff or any of the many other, one time great, carriers who are no longer with us. And if/when that happens, if you want to contine to be an airline pilot, you must start at the bottom of a new list, regardless of how many years of experience you have.
The system we have now has many flaws, no doubt. And any new system will also have flaws, there is no perfect solution. The question is, will it be better or worse, long term?
Here's something else to think about re. heavy pay vs. light pay.
What If...when the 787's (or A350's) finally come on line, the Majors who are today operating 747's and 777's replace all those larger jets with the (smaller) 787's? Delta did this years ago when they replaced 55 L10-11's with the smaller, lighter, less pax capacity 767 Er's. Pay cuts all around.
What if in the future, they replace the MD88/90 fleet with some new 100 seater? More of the same. ALPA's current pay formula (GW, seats, speeds) only improves our pay when airplanes are getting bigger. It works against us when airplanes get smaller.
When you get hired at a Major, and get your seniority number, you are pretty much locked into that one airline the rest of your carreer, unless they go under, ask anyone at Eastern, Pan Am, TWA, Braniff or any of the many other, one time great, carriers who are no longer with us. And if/when that happens, if you want to contine to be an airline pilot, you must start at the bottom of a new list, regardless of how many years of experience you have.
The system we have now has many flaws, no doubt. And any new system will also have flaws, there is no perfect solution. The question is, will it be better or worse, long term?
Here's something else to think about re. heavy pay vs. light pay.
What If...when the 787's (or A350's) finally come on line, the Majors who are today operating 747's and 777's replace all those larger jets with the (smaller) 787's? Delta did this years ago when they replaced 55 L10-11's with the smaller, lighter, less pax capacity 767 Er's. Pay cuts all around.
What if in the future, they replace the MD88/90 fleet with some new 100 seater? More of the same. ALPA's current pay formula (GW, seats, speeds) only improves our pay when airplanes are getting bigger. It works against us when airplanes get smaller.
05-30-2011 | 04:58 AM
No longer cares
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From: 767er Captain
You bring up a good point; though you do realize that any alternative will be a paycut for you, don't you? As a 777 Captain, going to longevity based pay, or flattening the payscales in anyway, is a paycut to you, while the smaller equipment sees a pay raise. I don't necessarily have a problem with that, but thought you might.
05-30-2011 | 05:07 AM
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From: 767er Captain
That would be getting into the nuances of all 12,000 pilots and somehow ensure that for the next 10, 20 or 30 years they don't change their mind on what aircraft they want to fly, never move, never get divorced and so on.
It's reasonable to assume their career expectation is to progress upwards and not camp out.
It's reasonable to assume their career expectation is to progress upwards and not camp out.
05-30-2011 | 05:37 AM
Runs with scissors
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From: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
And soon as we get Longevity Pay I'll be bidding...what ever is flying to a 24 hr. layover in St. Maarten! Lufthanza has it and their junior pilots are -forced- to fly the 747's around the world on 14 day trips, while their most senior pilots fly the 737 shuttle out of Berlin and go home every night.
That should tell you something.
That should tell you something.
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