Originally Posted by buddies8 (Post 3223422)

I remember someone telling me back in th mid nineties, working at a regional, they were trying for 6% pay increase and they were forced into a 3% increase only. He said you know 5 early and 10 late is 25%.

Originally Posted by CptnDave (Post 3224281)

So new hires again this year and flow starting again too.

Originally Posted by Chato (Post 3224332)

Originally Posted by Chato (Post 3224332)

Originally Posted by pitchattitude (Post 3224364)

Just remember, the “promise” of flow is all about managing attrition.

Originally Posted by pitchattitude (Post 3220131)

I have to disagree with the hiring coming back sooner rather than later. Like I said in my previous response, all the people that have been benched, however many of the approximately 225 come back, will need quite a bit of training time. Yes, there will be SOME hiring after that. But just like every other carrier, Envoy will be smaller. Roughly 80% of what it was. They are basically attritting down to that size. When they start hiring again, it will be for that continued attrition, with no real indication of growth for the foreseeable future. The whole industry will need to really start moving again to see the kind of attrition they had in the past. And a smaller Envoy also means less flow as flow is based on number of pilots on the seniority list. That is all part of the attrition-hiring equation. I just don’t see the kind of numbers Envoy was hiring for some time. I mean they were telling people to go to PSA.

Originally Posted by NoValueAviator (Post 3224386)

I'm glad I'm not the only one with this take. They definitely wouldn't be promising flow if they weren't seriously concerned. Maybe we can lean into their staffing anxiety and get some cost neutral goodies.

Originally Posted by CptnDave (Post 3224406)

Leave it to this pilot group to be upset about the best news we’ve had in over a year...

Originally Posted by But seriously (Post 3224432)

ENY is flowing pilots because they have to when AA is hiring. AA is hiring because they need pilots. I’m pretty sure that’s as deep as the conspiracy goes.

This is unequivocally good news. It’s still good for those that are actively trying to go elsewhere, because the guys that will flow in the fall were the ones holding the CA seat you needed for PIC time, the line you wanted, the vacation, the OT, etc. Movement is good for everyone.

Originally Posted by TransWorld (Post 3224434)

And why is AA hiring?

1. Retirements
2. COVID PAX loadfactor recovery

Originally Posted by CptnDave (Post 3224406)

Leave it to this pilot group to be upset about the best news we’ve had in over a year...

Originally Posted by ClappedOut145 (Post 3224437)

I wonder how many just cost themselves a flow slot by bidding over to the heavy in the last two bids? That would be less than ideal to have just cost yourself $250,000 at the end of your career because you really wanted to fly the big Envoy iron.

Originally Posted by CptnDave (Post 3224406)

Leave it to this pilot group to be upset about the best news we’ve had in over a year...

Originally Posted by CptnDave (Post 3224391)

This didn’t age well...

Originally Posted by pitchattitude (Post 3224485)

I’ll be more than happy to be wrong. But it still hasn’t happened. We’ll see when those flows and Envoy new hires actually happen, and how many there really are. As someone else pointed out the flow numbers will still be even less than they were.

Originally Posted by pitchattitude (Post 3224364)

Just remember, the “promise” of flow is all about managing attrition.

Originally Posted by Inclined plane (Post 3224540)

Thanks Captain obvious! Just messing, but yeah I think most everyone including cadets would probably forget their own gf/wife’s middle name sooner than forgetting that the flow is designed to keep the regional staffed. That being said, at least AAG gave the option to flow if you fly for them after X# years, unlike UA and DL, who hand out TBNT letters to the lucky few that get through the selection process to even get an interview opportunity, after many, many, years flying there pax around reliably for shockingly less pay. IMHO, Don’t rip the flow. It’s a good thing even in the worst light. Instead try to beat it.


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Originally Posted by ClappedOut145 (Post 3224437)

I wonder how many just cost themselves a flow slot by bidding over to the heavy in the last two bids? That would be less than ideal to have just cost yourself $250,000 at the end of your career because you really wanted to fly the big Envoy iron.

Originally Posted by Shiner (Post 3224558)

Envoy cancelled the Training Freezes for the bids in 2020 to save having to give 5 hours per month to displaced pilots.

No Training Freeze = No Flow Lock


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Originally Posted by highfarfast (Post 3224560)

The cancelled training freeze only effected those that were "frozen" at the time. Those that vacancy bid over after that are now committed to a year seat lock until flowing.

Originally Posted by Cyio (Post 3224570)

I would highly doubt there are very many that this would affect. Great news they are hiring again and even better news about the flow starting, however there won’t be significant flow movement in the next 12 months. I would assume those that could have held the heavy and been under 12 months from flow transitioned long ago.

Originally Posted by Shiner (Post 3224558)

Envoy cancelled the Training Freezes for the bids in 2020 to save having to give 5 hours per month to displaced pilots.

No Training Freeze = No Flow Lock


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Originally Posted by ClappedOut145 (Post 3224437)

I wonder how many just cost themselves a flow slot by bidding over to the heavy in the last two bids? That would be less than ideal to have just cost yourself $250,000 at the end of your career because you really wanted to fly the big Envoy iron.

Originally Posted by nitefr8dog (Post 3224722)

"Over to the heavy......wanted to fly the big Envoy iron.
That....is hilarious!

Originally Posted by ClappedOut145 (Post 3224689)

The last two bids didn’t come with an HI6 saying that the locks were canceled. There are some people who were close to flowing who switched planes. Some of those who have long suffered will suffer a bit more.

Originally Posted by Cyio (Post 3224570)

I would highly doubt there are very many that this would affect. Great news they are hiring again and even better news about the flow starting, however there won’t be significant flow movement in the next 12 months. I would assume those that could have held the heavy and been under 12 months from flow transitioned long ago.

Originally Posted by ClappedOut145 (Post 3224689)

The last two bids didn’t come with an HI6 saying that the locks were canceled. There are some people who were close to flowing who switched planes. Some of those who have long suffered will suffer a bit more.

Originally Posted by buddies8 (Post 3224765)

what constitutes long suffered to you.

hey let's start a go fund me for them.

Originally Posted by dera (Post 3224764)

Around 10 CAs screwed up their flow by various degrees by bidding 175 CA.

Originally Posted by UncreativeUser (Post 3224547)

This is how 95% of the pilot group feels. The collective unit who complains about flow are the ones who choose not to.

With that said, it’s a rock and a hard place here for our respected senior pilots. It’s tough to go both ways. Either you flow more for less, or take less for more flow. Hence, some think the flow is a carrot for less QOL, and some think the flow is worth more than temporary QOL.

With that said, the flow is not useless and I am happy to have one even with an accredited 4 year degree with a clean record. My aspiration is to beat the flow. If I am missing a diversity requirement or something else pops up that I don’t know about, I can at least move on. But that won’t stop me from networking and applying to the majors, including American!


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Originally Posted by pangolin (Post 3225099)

The flow has the potential to keep your regional from being top heavy pay scale wise.