Envoy Airlines Regional Airline

New Envoy Information

Old 06-05-2016, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyboy6271e
"This isn't work! Flying is so much fun, I'm amazed a paycheck shows up in my mailbox every two weeks!"

That's my two cents.

Im new to the game, but this doesn't jive very well. Its still a JOB and we as pilots should get properly compensated. This regional job is only a stepping stone.
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Old 06-05-2016, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by E175 Driver
Im new to the game, but this doesn't jive very well. Its still a JOB and we as pilots should get properly compensated. This regional job is only a stepping stone.
You're good!
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Old 06-05-2016, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Flyboy6271e
Okay Guys,

I'm in the Envoy June 6th class and I leave for DFW tomorrow. I have to say, some of the stuff I'm reading here is scaring me. However, this isn't my first rodeo as I spent 26 years with AA in M&E/QA and on the management side in Regulatory Affairs and Dangerous Goods Transportation Compliance (Bankruptcy RIF got me in late 2012). My side gigs got me the flight time to get in on the pilot side at Envoy.

Just a comment or two on what I've learned from my time at AA.

1. Above all, have a certain respect for the leadership. There were a lot of years that I and my union brothers hated Robert Crandall with passion. But in hindsight, He was the greatest asset AA has ever had next to C.R. Smith. I agree he could have handled labor relations much better than he did, but his focus was always on the creation of a world class airline. To illustrate, if you had the choice today between Robert Crandall or Don Carty, which would you chose? The guy that built AA into a multi billion dollar success, or the guy that tore it up inside 4 years to pay off his political and investor buddies? We legacy guys miss Bob, even if some of us refuse to admit it. Personally, I am glad for one thing Don did, and that was rescue the careers of many TWA guys that would have been blown to the wind under the plans that Icon had for them.
I wish we had Crandall back too. He wasn't "labor friendly" (a rarity in this industry), but at least he did what he said he'd do (most of the time). I think the comparisons of Crandall and Carty aren't very relevant to the present situations at either AA or the WO's and dwelling on that aspect of the past as a foundation doesn't apply well to what you see in the present realities. I think you'll find that going forward among the majority of the pilots you interact with, especially there at Envoy, that most are pretty jaded and looking for the exit be it the flow to AA or elsewhere. From my experience and observation, the pilot culture at AA is the worst it has ever been and considering that was supposed to be a top priority with the new management, it's even more distressing looking forward to the future. What one has done in the past and present is the best indicator of the future and respect is not a relationship component that assumed, it is earned.

In my POV and many, many others, it has not been earned and in fact, alienated.

Originally Posted by =Flyboy6271e
2. QOL is a tough sell in this business and ever elusive for all but the most dedicated (and wise). As seniority builds, so does privilege. It's all the same whether your a pilot, an ATM, or a FSC. We accept there will be long hours and odd shifts under difficult and unpredictable conditions. Anyone that has been in the business since deregulation understands that beyond the hardships that come with the job, there is always the uncertainty that the company you work for today, may not be here tomorrow. So we are forced to compromise and adapt. It is simply the reality of this business.
I think you'll find most of the pilots who get into this business are more then aware of the hours, shifts and its relevance to seniority. What DOES shock most is the seeming willingness to violate the very agreements that these management teams agree to and the frequency with which that occurs and that is NOT an aspect of "compromising and adapting", but a message of DISrespect, belittlement and manipulation.

Is it any wonder this industry has driven so many young minds to other professions or other types of flying then "entry-level" regional airline flying positions ? I hope you're prepared for what you're about to experience, if you are indeed a new-hire Envoy pilot. Personally, I think it would be best to approach it as a non-union job as many aspects of the Collective Bargaining Agreement you're about to be subject to are considered optional by many or at least treated that way.

Originally Posted by Flyboy6271e
3. If I learned anything from my time in this industry, it is that seniority is the greatest asset you will personally ever have. I know this first hand. I interviewed for an ATM position in April of 1986 and was told they would call in three weeks. Week 4 came and went and I started calling only to later find out the HR assistant was instructed to say no to anyone calling to check status. Finally one day, I called when the assistant was out to lunch and the HR director that interviewed me answered. After some research on his part, it was discovered that my file had been lost behind an overstuffed file cabinet. He called back the next day and made an offer. That was in September. Those 5 mouths cost me dearly in lost bids for QA positions and shift rotations over the years. The 8 of the 10 ATMs I worked with while doing line maintenance beat me by 1 to 4 mouths seniority! I had to eat crap for about 16 years of my ATM career at AA for those lost seniority numbers.
In this I agree. If you're going to put your money on this gambling table (and it IS a gamble), the best thing you can get for it to improve your odds of beating the house is seniority. Shiny planes become less shiny and used quickly, domiciles come and go for various reasons and schedules are cyclical, but seniority usually gives you the best options and odds..........when it's followed and respected by your management team, of course.

Originally Posted by Flyboy6271e
So to wrap up, there is probably good reason to be wary of leadership, but also a certain need to trust they are guiding the company in the right direction. Understand what you are getting into. It's not a bed of roses, and you're not going to get rich, but with time and wisdom, you can have a happy career and enjoy life for the most part. Finally, never ever forget that the date you hire will have far reaching effects on the path your career at any one company will take in this business. It carries more weight than any shinny new plane or perk you're offered.
Yes, I think you'll find that as you proceed as a pilot in this environment, you'll be increasingly wary of management or should be based on the past and present. I too was trusting and optimistic, but over time, I was grinded down by an endless series of failures by multiple managements that all had the same foundation and that was to find every way to sharpshoot every aspect of our agreement (contract) to dilute it to the point it had marginal resemblance to what its initial intent when the parties in question shook their hands and signed it.

Clearly, at least one side had their fingers crossed behind their backs. If some of the comments on this board scare you, I can only hope what you read in your CBA and what you actually see as to how its applied don't scare you more. Of course, if you really don't care about that and just the experience of flying a jet is all you care about, hey that's least you'll be in a happy place and satisfied. If you do care about agreements that are honored in intent and spirit, then IMO, you're in for a lot of angst that unfortunately, isn't likely to subside.

I wish you good luck on that. Really.

Originally Posted by Flyboy6271e
On a much more personal note: I was crushed when I got separated from AA. I knew the possibility always existed, but it was very hard non-the-less when the moment came. I took a job outside the industry for a couple of years and hated it! Now? Now I'm ever so thankful that I have been given the opportunity to return to what I love to do and do it with the people that I have so enjoyed working with all these years. For me, there is some financial catch-up to do, but like I say to all my friends and family, "This isn't work! Flying is so much fun, I'm amazed a paycheck shows up in my mailbox every two weeks!"

That's my two cents.

Virtually all the pilots in this industry love what they do and sadly, that's a double edged sword, because it's one (of many) reasons why airline pilots are taken advantage of so readily by those they have agreements with. Most want more then "just a paycheck", they also want respect, honesty, fairness, collaboration, communication and a multitude of other relationship builders, but sadly while the paycheck is more stable (although under frequent attack too), the other aspects are much more elusive and I think you'll find most you fly with will feel the same way depending on how long they have been subject to the disturbing realities they too had underestimated when they came into the industry. Those "relationship building" aspects are much more prevalent in other professions from my interaction with those in those professions and considering the time, money, effort and responsibility pilots have to get to this level (part 121 crewmember), that truly is disturbing.

Good luck with your flying goals and it will be fun (at least for awhile), but my quarter century + in this rodeo of actually riding the horse (being a pilot) and existing in this industry demonstrates it can and does grind many down to a realism that although doesn't destroy their love for the job itself, it does have a tendency to destroy their desire to produce for those that seem to fail them so willingly so as to make a difference and that is among the biggest misfortunes of all. There is reason to be optimistic though as some companies like Delta Airlines are not only seeing the future and making the right moves, are also beginning to walk the walk with their pilots, instead of doubling down on the past and talking the talk while jitterbugging into the woods at every opportunity. Delta is destined to be the premier airline among the U.S. big three and the foreign carriers will even outshine them, but the industry also needs its Walmart's too and while a different product, many pilots will accept that as the job itself is the same when the cockpit door is closed.

Personally, I think one major key to at least peace and content in this profession is the identification and acceptance of which environment and product surrounds you based on what YOU see and experience and not what others try to convince you of. Thus, you will see what you want to see and whatever that is will work for you or if it does not, you will seek to change it ASAP by seeking a different environment. I've found that when you see and experience one thing, while others try to convince you it's another is when that peace may be disturbed. That peace is disturbed further the more you try to irrationally match to opposing concepts that can never be matched as they are in opposition to each other. Good luck with that too, really. I would caution you though to expect a lot of negativity in many of the people you will fly with for IMO, many of them have been experiencing opposing representations of reality (that which is internally experienced to that which is externally represented by others) and/or worse yet, trying to connect two un-connectable concepts in the futile effort to match the two. That only brings stress.

This profession is without doubt among the most dysfunctional ones out there and I think as long as you don't expect too much of it and even less from those who are destined to repeatedly fail you, you'll be in a more realistic position and will actually be happier just flying the airplane and not worrying about anything else. Enjoy your training at Envoy as it was among the best in the business when I was there and I assume still is.

Just my .02 as always............
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Old 06-05-2016, 03:13 PM
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Your $24.99. TL, DR.
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Old 06-05-2016, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by adspilot
Envoy is offering choice of base. Also, for those guys that weren't offered their choice of base were able to bid Dallas during training. You can get pretty much any base you want.
Not much choice though. ORD and DFW are it.
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Old 06-05-2016, 07:24 PM
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This is good news for me that Envoy is offering a choice between the two. Considering I have to commit to a new lease in North Dallas because the number one basic need (some place to sleep) has to be met. I was hoping to be at the golden 1500 by July but the weather slowed down flight instruction for weeks at a time this spring in DFW. So I will have to continue to teach the international guys over the summer. At this point It would be easier to commute back home to see friends and family than it would to commute to ORD. But I'm sure by the time of my arrival in training they will probably not offer a choice of bases at that time but at least for now its good to know that they offer it for the short term.
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Old 06-06-2016, 03:29 AM
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Guys, I would advice anyone thats heading for the new class today, to take the E175. Why? Because your quality of life will be much better( line holding quicker, off weekends) plus its a brand new aircraft! Much more superior than the ERJ or CRJ in technology.
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Old 06-06-2016, 04:45 AM
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I was a pipeline instructor and started in January. Anyone quit within their first year at Envoy as a pipeline? I'm looking at the financial repercussions now. Looking hard at Endeavor. I'm not too happy with things here and it looks like I would be stuck with no upgrade in sight. The flow looks like it will work out for those at the top but new guys like me probably won't ever see it. Endeavor is offering a 1 year upgrade. That's the main reason I'm looking at them. Plus you get a guaranteed Delta interview.
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Old 06-06-2016, 04:55 AM
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What are the numbers in your calculation? Don't ever count on the upgrade but their 20k bonus does a lot to pay back the envoy bonus.
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Old 06-06-2016, 07:49 AM
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Any idea if upcoming classes are DFW E-175 only or does it look like ORD spots are available as well ?
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