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Old 06-06-2016, 10:42 AM
  #3111  
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in a single word answer, NO. just lip service.
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Old 06-06-2016, 10:55 AM
  #3112  
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Originally Posted by buddies8 View Post
in a single word answer, NO. just lip service.
Jesus. That's awful. Why haven't you guys voted these people on the MEC out? What's their logic of not doing anything to make sure contracts are being enforced and bettering things? I don't get it.
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Old 06-06-2016, 11:05 AM
  #3113  
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Originally Posted by Exupery View Post
Does the union help with any of this?
What can they do but assist you with grievance filing procedures ? In the past, my recollection is that the average period between filing and resolution of a grievance was something like 18 months. So, if Envoy has staffing issues (which they always seem to do during the Summer months), it isn't surprising they may take the position of just disregarding contractural provisions, doing what they want and worrying about it in a year or two.

Isn't that the crux of the LTFO grievance that from what I hear will pay scraps to people deliberately stiffed years ago who are STILL waiting for the scraps ? Pilots are now reporting that illegal JM's are occurring. It goes on and on. From the sound of it, the CBA gets violated there so often, it isn't even considered a contract anymore but a paper Collander for draining lettuce. This can't be Parker doing it as he doesn't bother himself with day-to-day Envoy issues.

My condolences for anyone willing to sign up for this type of treatment and even more so if they believe it is worthy of respect.
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Old 06-06-2016, 11:10 AM
  #3114  
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Originally Posted by CAirBear View Post
Jesus. That's awful. Why haven't you guys voted these people on the MEC out? What's their logic of not doing anything to make sure contracts are being enforced and bettering things? I don't get it.
Because it sounds like the union there has relegated itself to being nothing more then a think tank that offers suggestions. I noted on EL one of the present reps apparently thinks it's still the unions and pilots job to bring in new pilots using the term "we" when describing the ability to attract pilots, although someone responded to his phraseology and "fixed it for him". Was that just an inadvertent misstatement, or are the union reps still subconsciously taking responsibility for staffing assistance and being enablers ?
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Old 06-06-2016, 11:22 AM
  #3115  
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Originally Posted by envoy1 View Post
I'm on reserve. I get that. Pay your dues and all. Getting assigned 4am RAPs on day one. Finishing very late on your last day. Both of these are terrible for commmutability. Crew scheduling is nasty with you on the phone. There's a punitive atmosphere here. Fatigued? Deal with the chief pilot, get your pay docked likely not to ever get reimbursed. How's this? On reserve, fly 5 legs and fatigue when you are asked to extend and go to an overnight. Already flown over 3.5 hours. Get 3.5 hours deducted from your pay. Fight with crew pay to restore to no avail.
Just out of curiosity, how do you envision reserve at other regionals? ( on a side note, your claim experience after a FTG is not how they handle pay for a FTG flight removal. CS doesn't establish the pay dock. Pay comp figures that and I have NEVER had them incorrectly dock FTG pay on reserve. Never. They do make mistakes but have always been quick to correct them. Envoy has its problems. So many in fact, that you shouldn't have to make stuff up)
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Old 06-06-2016, 11:24 AM
  #3116  
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Originally Posted by envoy1 View Post
I'm on reserve. I get that. Pay your dues and all. Getting assigned 4am RAPs on day one. Finishing very late on your last day. Both of these are terrible for commmutability. Crew scheduling is nasty with you on the phone. There's a punitive atmosphere here. Fatigued? Deal with the chief pilot, get your pay docked likely not to ever get reimbursed. How's this? On reserve, fly 5 legs and fatigue when you are asked to extend and go to an overnight. Already flown over 3.5 hours. Get 3.5 hours deducted from your pay. Fight with crew pay to restore to no avail. File a grievance, sits there. Already are making peanuts.

On top of all that, hostile management who is talking up a 2.5 year upgrade which is an outright lie. And a 6 year flow which I've figured out is bogus. Besides the top guys who won't flow, maybe 300 past that will get to. Not much of a chance for those of us after. That's a lot of it.
How do you treat Crew Scheduling? I've been here 5.5 yrs and never had a problem with them, treat them with respect, say hi what can I help you with? Your fault is commuting to work, try to live in base and you'll see the difference.

Also for the "guaranteed interview" you have to meet certain requirements and I believe you have to be like a 2yrs as a CA and then wait for your seniority to be interviewed.

Think about this way...

1. You've been already here 6 months.
2. By the time you're done with training in Endevour it will be September/October. 9 months since you started in the airlines
3. It will take you 1.5yr to make your 1,000 P121. Now you are into March/Apr 2018.
4. The earliest you will be able to get a Interview with Delta via Endevour is 2020/2021.

That's about 5 to 6 yrs before you can interview in Delta. When the flow starts moving (once they are done with the Letter T guys) you could be potentially in AA by 2020/2021. Because you are in the beginning of the last group of flow.

Same time frame with a Guaranteed Job at AA, not an interview. By then Delta would have about 6,000 New Hires with the average age of 35/45 yr old. Meanwhile all the guys flowing into AA and the once already there have around 10 to 15 yrs to retire.

Also the 10k they are giving us for this year it will be around 6,000 after taxes (that is if you hold them and not use them in any case).

I'm not telling you to stay. I'm saying that look at the pros and cons...also the Endevour Bonus ends in 2018, same timeframe they will have their CS series up and running. If you think AA is bad to their regionals, you have to study Comair, ASA and Compass history. It's just a matter of time before Endevour is too expensive for Delta.

They are using them until their planes are up and running.
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Old 06-06-2016, 11:52 AM
  #3117  
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Originally Posted by PilotJ3 View Post
Think about this way...

1. You've been already here 6 months.
2. By the time you're done with training in Endevour it will be September/October. 9 months since you started in the airlines
3. It will take you 1.5yr to make your 1,000 P121. Now you are into March/Apr 2018.
4. The earliest you will be able to get a Interview with Delta via Endevour is 2020/2021.

That's about 5 to 6 yrs before you can interview in Delta. When the flow starts moving (once they are done with the Letter T guys) you could be potentially in AA by 2020/2021. Because you are in the beginning of the last group of flow.
".....you could potentially be at AA by 2020/2021".

Well that sounds like sometime in 2020 and it's mid 2016, so are you saying he could be at AA in a little over 4 years (a 4.75 year flow for someone here 6 months) ?

I think anytime in 2020 is a bit optimistic for a 6 month newbie.
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Old 06-06-2016, 11:53 AM
  #3118  
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That's one thing a buddy of mine who is a CA at Endeavor told me. Many who are senior there and have seen how that management operates thinks that they are hiring as many as they can right now and pulling 200s out of the desert as a stop-gap. And then in 2018 when the C-Series starts to be delivered and the cost of crude is projected to go back up, they speculate they may just furlough excess pilots as the 200s are parked again. Endeavor, while certainly the top-paying flavor of the week, isnt as safe a bet as some think. This industry is a Ferris wheel. Those at the top always come down, and those at the bottom inevitably come up. If you aren't already on property when the good news arrives you're likely already too late.
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Old 06-06-2016, 12:03 PM
  #3119  
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Originally Posted by PilotJ3 View Post
How do you treat Crew Scheduling? I've been here 5.5 yrs and never had a problem with them, treat them with respect, say hi what can I help you with? Your fault is commuting to work, try to live in base and you'll see the difference.

Also for the "guaranteed interview" you have to meet certain requirements and I believe you have to be like a 2yrs as a CA and then wait for your seniority to be interviewed.

Think about this way...

1. You've been already here 6 months.
2. By the time you're done with training in Endevour it will be September/October. 9 months since you started in the airlines
3. It will take you 1.5yr to make your 1,000 P121. Now you are into March/Apr 2018.
4. The earliest you will be able to get a Interview with Delta via Endevour is 2020/2021.

That's about 5 to 6 yrs before you can interview in Delta. When the flow starts moving (once they are done with the Letter T guys) you could be potentially in AA by 2020/2021. Because you are in the beginning of the last group of flow.

Same time frame with a Guaranteed Job at AA, not an interview. By then Delta would have about 6,000 New Hires with the average age of 35/45 yr old. Meanwhile all the guys flowing into AA and the once already there have around 10 to 15 yrs to retire.

Also the 10k they are giving us for this year it will be around 6,000 after taxes (that is if you hold them and not use them in any case).

I'm not telling you to stay. I'm saying that look at the pros and cons...also the Endevour Bonus ends in 2018, same timeframe they will have their CS series up and running. If you think AA is bad to their regionals, you have to study Comair, ASA and Compass history. It's just a matter of time before Endevour is too expensive for Delta.

They are using them until their planes are up and running.
I response to how do you treat scheduling. For some schedulers it really doesn't matter how you treat them they are just nasty. I'm always pleasant and some are pleasant back. However......some are not at all...I've been laughed at for legit requests multiple times. and have had to fight for them to honor the contract countless times. Also low man reserve they are pretty ruthless with because they think those guys and gals don't understand the contract. And they fight just to try to make you think you are wrong. It's intimidation.

Again it gets better as you get seniority and they focus more on the lower reserves. But the first year is brutal no doubt.
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Old 06-06-2016, 12:11 PM
  #3120  
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Originally Posted by CAirBear View Post
Jesus. That's awful. Why haven't you guys voted these people on the MEC out? What's their logic of not doing anything to make sure contracts are being enforced and bettering things? I don't get it.
It is the same at any regional, not just Envoy. All you can do is file a grievance and wait if management decides to violate the contract on something and your CP orders you to do it. RAH, Mesa, Endeavor, none of them are any different. Anything that may be considered a work action by the pilot group is against the law and has penalties, like fines, or even jail time.

You can thank the POS waaaaaay outdated 100 year old railway labor act that we live under for that.

Mostly small things people talk about I don't have problems with. Cite the contract section they are violating and refuse it if scheduling is trying to do something wrong. Get the supervisor on the line, (you can ask for them anytime you want). They can't force you to do anything, although they might try with people that are new or pushovers because it works most of the time. Only your supervisors (Chief Pilot) can make you do something. Get your rep on the phone asap if they continue to push.. and they will try to deal with it either with the scheduling supervisors or the CP. Usually this works before it escalates into something else. I have never had anything crew scheduling related come down to a CP ordering me to do it against the contract when I refused it. I hear it has happened rarely for certain situations, but it's definitely not a normal daily occurrence. If schedulers are legitimately being "nasty", which I haven't run into. (Some are just not very friendly, not helpful at all, and unpleasant people in general, but not nasty). But if they were, This would be so easy to deal with by anyone, even a new hire. Everything is recorded. Call your rep, get the tapes pulled, they can send over the mp3 to the CP office. Problem solved. I have had an issue with a guy one time in all my time here, and they pulled the tapes, we listened to it right there on the spot, and it was dealt with.

I'm not talking about the 4am RAP Grievance (those are major issues, I agree), I mean the daily stuff they try to pull over on people.

Last edited by RyanP; 06-06-2016 at 12:38 PM.
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