dosbo

It used to be you could have a decent quality of life and make a reasonable income at some of the regionals; Skywest, Horizon, Air Wisconsin, ACA. Then the undercutting began by new or uniformed pilots seeking the fast upgrade over quality of life and income at airlines such as; Mesa, Colgan, Republic, Go Jet. Some pilots were willing to sell themselves cheap so they could upgrade fast get 1000 TPIC and move on. Only problem is mainline kept growing the regionals with larger and larger replacement jets, exploiting greedy pilots, with minimal hiring or shrinkage at mainline. For example United has shrunk thier pilot list by nearly 50% since I decided to get in this side of the business. Those jobs didn't go away they just went to the regional pilots looking for the fast upgrade so they could move on. My question is move on to where? That last hiring wave wasn't very large and didn't last long.

There has been no consistent significant hiring at the majors since the RJ bonanza began and there won't be as long as pilots are willing to fly larger and larger aircraft at lower rates with the hope of getting their upgrade and moving on. How many people on here would salivate at the prospect of flying 100+ seat aircraft at their regional because it would allow them to upgrade then move on? Think about that.

ACA (aka Independence Air) is out of business because they would not sell themselves cheaply. Air Wisconsin is flying on a concessionary contract with 50 seat rates that with rigs beat most 70 and some 90 seat rates. Their pilots unwillingness to take further concessions cost them their United contract and will probably put them out of business when the US Air contract is up.

My point is when you go to a regional, quality of life and pay should be the primary consideration. You may end up being there much longer than planned. Until we as pilots start looking at each job we take as a long term prospect we will not demand appropriate compensation. Compensation includes; pay, benefits, time off, and any thing else that improves your and your families (yes some people need to support families) overall quality of life.

If you feel that a career at Go Jet provides an adequate quality of life for you and your family then enjoy. I will keep my expectations where they are and will only fly for adequate compensation. If that means that I remain furloughed then so be it. I won't stay in this business if the airlines aren't willing to compensate me appropriately for my skills and experience, you can have it.

What will be unfortunate for you is when in several years some new or alter ego entity decides to fly 90 seats for less than your 70 seat rates. If you feel you are properly compensated at Go Jet then all I have to say is enjoy you future. I'll just keep my panties bunched up.

Disclaimer: The above listed airlines and pilot groups are listed as examples in no particular order and are not all inclusive of the involved parties in the regional airline debacle.

CaptainCarl

+1 Good post.

pause

Dosbo,
I agree with everything you stated in your last post but it was the greedy mainline pilots that allowed this whole debacle to get out of control. There are some regionals (few) that have a good contract. Good for them. You're right that we all need to demand quality of life and a good compensation for the jobs we do. But, most regional airlines do not provide that and yet people still line up for the job. It's not right but that is what happens.
Secondly, I don't work for Unkle Hulie anymore and I've never felt better. One of the greatest days of my life is when I left that horrible company.

My main point being you could have inserted most regional airline names where you inserted "gojet".

dosbo

You may be right to an extent but much of the loss of the 70 and 90 seat segment was lost by mainline in bankruptcy under the fear of court imposed contract language.

People line up for the job because they have the attitude of get in get 1000 TPIC and move on. Someone needs to educate them (the new entrants to the profession) on the realities of the regional industry and the lack of real opportunity to move on in a timely manner. The misinformation of become an airline pilot because, there is a looming shortage of pilots, you will make lots of money, and have half the month off need to be exposed. It is pathetic that one of the better contracts (Air Wisconsin) is concessionary and still too expensive to be competitive in todays market. CFI's building time need to understand the cycle of destruction and that by taking a low paying professional position that they are sacrificing their own future for a very short term gain.

If one of the greatest days of your life was when you left Uncle Hulie, why don't you share your experience first hand of why you left and why it was such a great day. Current applicants to his empire should know why it isn't worth staying there for the long term. How many years of your life did he exploit you for before you decided you had to move on? What ever you moved on to I wish you the best of luck. Life is too short to live in a cesspool making someone else wealthy.

You are absolutely right that I could have inserted most any regional because now they must continually undercut each other just to keep the flying they have. I focused on Go Jet because that is what the OP asked about. Also they are flying 70 seaters in United paint for less than I made flying 50 seaters. I sit at home furloughed because some professional pilot is willing to sell themselves cheap with the hope of moving on and as a result they are affecting more people than just themselves. This is the second time in my 121 career that my quality of life and income has been directly impacted by someone willing to fly larger aircraft for less money.

Unless new entrants to the profession raise their expectations and understand the reality of this profession, this career will no longer be worth the effort, cost, and family sacrifice. It is already nearly there.

I'll step off my soap box now.

AirWillie

What is wrong with trying to move on from a regional? You make it sound like it's a crime. You are following a pie in the sky, cumbaya mentality. You can not have every single regional paying top dollar with contracts better than the next. It's impossible. For some regionals like Expressjet it worked out because of their circumstance. That does not mean that's what works with others, look at Comair or Eagle or most other higher costing regionals out there which are in decline because they are too expensive. If you don't want to be affected, stop crying about the injustice of the regional industry, get out there get some experience and move on from the hell hole. It's very simple.

dosbo

Nothing is wrong with moving on from a regional, It should be everyones goal but it must be realized that not everyone can or will move on from a regional. Those that don't should be able to have a decent career.

Moving on is exactly what I did, then I was furloughed from a major and my flying outsourced to regionals. When I took my regional job in 01 I went to a company with pay rates and benefits that I would be satisfied retireing with. We then got a better contract after which another regional took a crappy contract to be significantly cheaper than we were. Shortly after that we took concessions just to maintain the flying we already had. several years later more concessions were asked for to keep the flying we already took concessions to keep, at that point the pilot group told management to stick it which resulted in losing the united flying. After that i concluded the company was no longer worth retiring at and I moved on to a major airline at my first opportunity.

My whole point is that if new entrants to the profession want to have a viable career the regional flying must become more expensive so it is moved back to mainline. By taking the first available regional job regardless of pay just to gain experience people are selling their future career potential. Why not just fly for free because it is so much fun, management would love that.

Don't worry about me I did move on from my regional, I have plenty of experience, and am making more flying six days a month in the Guard than most regional FO's top out at. I have no incentive or desire to return to a regional as they exist in the current environment.

I only hope that some starry eyed CFI will read these threads and perhaps think about what the industry is worth as a profession before selling themselves to the lowest bidder. My intent is to work in a profession that is compensated appropriately for skill, judgement, and experience. If I just want a job I'll go be a manager at McBurger.

Fishfreighter

Willie,

You missed his point. Where are the current regional pilots going to go? UAL/CAL had over 2000 guys on furlough. So does AA. Delta is going to hire 300 this year, Emeriates 700.

Regionals flying 70, 90 and 100 seat jets are replacing mainline jobs.

A lot of regional guys who thought they were going to get their 1000 PIC and move up better plan on retiring where they're at. Consequently, they NEED to improve their pay and work rules to make regional flying a career option. Realistically for most of you its your only option.

dosbo

Thanks Fish,

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Some days I feel like I am beating my head against the wall of futility.

Fishfreighter

dos,

I think you're right on. Everyone thinks they're going to be a 747 CA someday. But then every freshman football player thinks he's going to be Varsity by his senior year.

Everyone's career tops out at some point. People who take jobs that undercut other guys' pay rates don't seem to understand they eliminate advancement possibilities for THEMSELVES.

That applies to the Virgins and Allegiants of the world as much as the Colgans and Gojets.

P.S. I dig your Apache. If that's what you fly in the Guard, thanks for your service and Happy Independence Day!

dosbo

Fish,

The Apache is what I currently fly. I was able to dig myself out of retirement recently and get back into a Guard unit to help make ends meet. I also do it because I enjoy serving my country, plus it's a kick in the pants to fly. Your welcome for the service it's my pleasure.

Happy Independence Day to you as well.