JetBlue Latest and Greatest
01-26-2018, 06:41 AM
#5322
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,206
Originally Posted by queue
Std Dev, I am once again forced to respond because you have some severe misunderstandings.
Socialism
------------------
Demanding industry standard wages is not socialism. Socialism is government tyrannical control over corporations. This is what the Bernie-sandonistas want. What I advocate is for us to take a more active role in defining that we are a market force of our own. This IS a vital element of capitalism.
For the record, I am a Libertarian which makes me more conservative than the vast majority of so called RINO "conservatives". As such, I advocate for even far less control over government intervention. In fact, I wish we didn't have the Railway Labour Act. The RLA gives all the power to the company and virtually none to us, since there's such a high barrier to getting to a strike. Without the RLA, we could lawfully organize and strike in a week to get the wage we are deserved by market forces.
Doctors demanding at Baylor
-------------------------------------
If you don't see yourself equal to a medical doctor, engineer, scientist, you are probably a substandard pilot. I come from a STEM background with multiple degrees and 20+ yrs of military flying. I say this because it gives credibility to my statement that being a pilot is on the same level as a medical doctor, engineer, scientist, etc. I have been both things at civilian jobs, the military, and now an airline. The level of knowledge required of a pilot is just as high, if not higher, which I tell you through personal accomplished experience. I could lay out all the books I've ever had to read for my pilot job and it's easily twice the length of 2 collections of Encyclopedia Britannica (if anyone remembers, they are almost 12 ft. long). Your job is extremely technical. A good pilot is cross disciplined, having a cursory knowledge of various disciplines of engineering, science, and even the service industry (MBA stuff). If you are sitting back and coasting on your proficiency in daily operations, you are an inferior pilot (alluding to a quote from General Chuck Yeager). I hope you aren't one of those guys that has no problem cruising at Recommended Max Altitude or not even knowing what Mach Tuck is.
The reason that you don't see Doctors organizing the way we do is because they do it in other ways. I say this from my sister's viewpoint (a medical doctor), my own corporate experience, and what I learn from mostly friends in those industries... Firstly, doctors have professional organizations such as the American Medical Association and other state NGOs. Those NGOs are professional because they control training, standards, testing, and certification. They control the supply of doctors which has the secondary effect of also creating demand. They dictate how many doctors can go to med school, the minimum standard of someone who can go to med school, and the curriculum. Pilots have no such professional organization. We only have enthusiast organizations. This is why any Joe with no degree or high school diploma could be an airline pilot. Secondly, medical doctors negotiate on an individual basis at the core. Sure, doctors are given standard rates but this is a hospital by hospital decision. Each hospital company is free to pay a doctor whatever they want in order to get that doctor. That doctor can always name his price. Before I flew airplanes, I dictated my price and always got it. Pilots have never truly demanded they be treated like professionals (e.g. blue gloves) so they are left only to unionize.
Again, I can't stress enough that you are no different than other professionals such as medical doctors, engineers, scientists, lawyers, etc. For some reason, I think you see yourself as a doctor from Scrubs or some other TV doctor.
Industry Average
-----------------------------
We fly Airbus and Emb airplanes with X number of pax across international borders. Anyone who does the same things is fair game for comparison. This includes Delta, United, SWA, etc.... If we look at it mathematically, we are not being compensated accordingly to the industry standard. Don't cross the streams. I'm not saying that "industry average" is an entitlement or legal requirement. I am saying that each of us, as "individual certificated professionals" (our FAA certificates allow us to exercise our services for any employer but under the same FAA regulations of the certificate), must make the decision that we are worth a certain amount. Thus, we band together as a union to work within the system (RLA) to get what other certificated professionals of our stratification are worth.
Please don't say things like welfare or handouts. That's certainly not the case. It's nothing more than we will not accept providing a service for our employer without getting the compensation we feel our services are worth.
If you don't see yourself as General Chuck Yeager, you are wrong (and probably a low-standards pilot).
Socialism
------------------
Demanding industry standard wages is not socialism. Socialism is government tyrannical control over corporations. This is what the Bernie-sandonistas want. What I advocate is for us to take a more active role in defining that we are a market force of our own. This IS a vital element of capitalism.
For the record, I am a Libertarian which makes me more conservative than the vast majority of so called RINO "conservatives". As such, I advocate for even far less control over government intervention. In fact, I wish we didn't have the Railway Labour Act. The RLA gives all the power to the company and virtually none to us, since there's such a high barrier to getting to a strike. Without the RLA, we could lawfully organize and strike in a week to get the wage we are deserved by market forces.
Doctors demanding at Baylor
-------------------------------------
If you don't see yourself equal to a medical doctor, engineer, scientist, you are probably a substandard pilot. I come from a STEM background with multiple degrees and 20+ yrs of military flying. I say this because it gives credibility to my statement that being a pilot is on the same level as a medical doctor, engineer, scientist, etc. I have been both things at civilian jobs, the military, and now an airline. The level of knowledge required of a pilot is just as high, if not higher, which I tell you through personal accomplished experience. I could lay out all the books I've ever had to read for my pilot job and it's easily twice the length of 2 collections of Encyclopedia Britannica (if anyone remembers, they are almost 12 ft. long). Your job is extremely technical. A good pilot is cross disciplined, having a cursory knowledge of various disciplines of engineering, science, and even the service industry (MBA stuff). If you are sitting back and coasting on your proficiency in daily operations, you are an inferior pilot (alluding to a quote from General Chuck Yeager). I hope you aren't one of those guys that has no problem cruising at Recommended Max Altitude or not even knowing what Mach Tuck is.
The reason that you don't see Doctors organizing the way we do is because they do it in other ways. I say this from my sister's viewpoint (a medical doctor), my own corporate experience, and what I learn from mostly friends in those industries... Firstly, doctors have professional organizations such as the American Medical Association and other state NGOs. Those NGOs are professional because they control training, standards, testing, and certification. They control the supply of doctors which has the secondary effect of also creating demand. They dictate how many doctors can go to med school, the minimum standard of someone who can go to med school, and the curriculum. Pilots have no such professional organization. We only have enthusiast organizations. This is why any Joe with no degree or high school diploma could be an airline pilot. Secondly, medical doctors negotiate on an individual basis at the core. Sure, doctors are given standard rates but this is a hospital by hospital decision. Each hospital company is free to pay a doctor whatever they want in order to get that doctor. That doctor can always name his price. Before I flew airplanes, I dictated my price and always got it. Pilots have never truly demanded they be treated like professionals (e.g. blue gloves) so they are left only to unionize.
Again, I can't stress enough that you are no different than other professionals such as medical doctors, engineers, scientists, lawyers, etc. For some reason, I think you see yourself as a doctor from Scrubs or some other TV doctor.
Industry Average
-----------------------------
We fly Airbus and Emb airplanes with X number of pax across international borders. Anyone who does the same things is fair game for comparison. This includes Delta, United, SWA, etc.... If we look at it mathematically, we are not being compensated accordingly to the industry standard. Don't cross the streams. I'm not saying that "industry average" is an entitlement or legal requirement. I am saying that each of us, as "individual certificated professionals" (our FAA certificates allow us to exercise our services for any employer but under the same FAA regulations of the certificate), must make the decision that we are worth a certain amount. Thus, we band together as a union to work within the system (RLA) to get what other certificated professionals of our stratification are worth.
Please don't say things like welfare or handouts. That's certainly not the case. It's nothing more than we will not accept providing a service for our employer without getting the compensation we feel our services are worth.
If you don't see yourself as General Chuck Yeager, you are wrong (and probably a low-standards pilot).
The only thing that I disagree with there is the concept that by organizing you get market rate. Unions (by definition) create a false marketplace. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, because our rates would be far less if it weren't for unions creating the false marketplace. In this case you aren't getting "market rate." You're demanding a rate above market, and denying the company the ability to go to the wider market to shop around.
The RLA does provide us some protections too. If we weren't covered under it, we wouldn't be able to organize in "right to work" states, and also agency shop would be illegal in many states. Guaranteed, it would be more difficult to organize, and the company could bust a union more easily. That being said, there's room for improvement in the RLA.
Before you guys flame me, this is purely an academic discussion about what he says about market rate, and in no way is it a commentary on our current situation at this company.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
01-26-2018, 06:51 AM
#5323
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,132
Originally Posted by hilltopflyer
Thank you. As a relative of a doctor, they definitely look st what others are making. Insurance has changed the game completely and it's a reason so many are going into dermatology, plastics etc. They negotiate their own rate and look at other markets to help on their negotiations. It's not hard, it's what most professions do.
Also, please remember to include the following factors that should increase our compensation, even above doctors:
- Time away from home. (doctors get nice benefits like student loans forgiven for working in disadvantaged communities).
- Exposure to radiation shortening our lives (we are classified as radiation workers, and as such, at the top end of the scale above nuclear plant workers!)
- The Most Unhealthy Jobs In America - Business Insider
- This blends several danger factors together including radiation, but you get the idea. I once saw a chart showing mSV exposure/damage rates and I'll post later when I find it.
- Non-circadian rhythm lifestyles leading to disease and shorter lifespans.
- Tons of un-reimbursed expenses such as crashpads, commuting expenses, use of our personal computers and cellphones for company business, and constant study outside of work "duty time".
- Away during holidays and events of personal significance.
- Exposure to exotic germs, bacteria, viruses and certain vaccines.
- Higher rate of stress than most occupations.
- Exposure to HAZMAT such as Tricrysal Phosphate (TCP) and other derivative organophosphates on a daily basis (yes DAILY).
#1 ought to be military officer or military in general but you get the idea...
01-26-2018, 07:01 AM
#5324
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,132
Originally Posted by Southerner
The only thing that I disagree with there is the concept that by organizing you get market rate. Unions (by definition) create a false marketplace. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, because our rates would be far less if it weren't for unions creating the false marketplace. In this case you aren't getting "market rate." You're demanding a rate above market, and denying the company the ability to go to the wider market to shop around.
The RLA does provide us some protections too. If we weren't covered under it, we wouldn't be able to organize in "right to work" states, and also agency shop would be illegal in many states. Guaranteed, it would be more difficult to organize, and the company could bust a union more easily. That being said, there's room for improvement in the RLA.
Before you guys flame me, this is purely an academic discussion about what he says about market rate, and in no way is it a commentary on our current situation at this company.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The RLA does provide us some protections too. If we weren't covered under it, we wouldn't be able to organize in "right to work" states, and also agency shop would be illegal in many states. Guaranteed, it would be more difficult to organize, and the company could bust a union more easily. That being said, there's room for improvement in the RLA.
Before you guys flame me, this is purely an academic discussion about what he says about market rate, and in no way is it a commentary on our current situation at this company.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm not actually pro-union except in the case of ALPA. This is because government intervention has given us no other logical choice. Like I said in my original post, without the RLA, we could truly exercise our individual ability to be a market force of our own (like all other professionals). Unfortunately the RLA says that we HAVE to be unionized in order to have an influence. Like most other government regulations, many are put in place to give power to corporations or to create a barrier to entry for competitors. In our case, the RLA gives inordinate amounts of power to airlines. Consider this.. in NJ you can't refuel your own car because of (unnecessary) government regulation.
Since we are stuck with the RLA, I do agree, and believe that we must redo the RLA to give us more say-so at the table. The current system only benefits the employer from a strategic standpoint. We only get limited tactical control. Airline contracts are not complex and they are well known quantities. The airline could settle this literally overnight and saying anything otherwise is simply a false choice. Countries and governments are set up in 1/1000th the time span of the average airline contract. The management elites give us all these false arguments such as "it's our first contact". Consider this too.... going to the moon is exponentially more complex with infinitely more unknowns, than an airline contract. JB *could* just 100% carbon copy Delta's or even United's contract and execute it overnight. They *choose* not to. It's not complex. Going to the moon is complex and requires study, nothing about airline contracts is complex or unknown. The only reason that JB drags this on is because we have not made it prohibitively expensive for them not to. It's OUR fault that we don't see ourselves as professionals enough. It's our fault that we let JB drag this on for years. How many attempts did it take to get ALPA? How many people believed in naive and uninformed viewpoints until 3A? Personally, I think we need to focus on being treated like professionals far above and beyond a simple contract with BlueJet.
01-26-2018, 07:07 AM
#5325
Not A Janitor
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 814
Originally Posted by Std Deviation
Been out with the flu...
I NEVER said we make too much money. I’m merely a student of human behavior. I pontificate on my observations. I don’t see a group of doctors at Baylor shouting that the docs at Parkland make more. A group of accountants at Deloitte squawking that those dogs over at Ernst and Young are getting bigger profit sharing. Different companies. Apples to Oranges. Like JB and Delta. How many pilots does Delta have again? Aircraft? It seems everyone hired here prior to 3 years ago willingly came to work for a non union carrier, no?
I NEVER said we make too much money. I’m merely a student of human behavior. I pontificate on my observations. I don’t see a group of doctors at Baylor shouting that the docs at Parkland make more. A group of accountants at Deloitte squawking that those dogs over at Ernst and Young are getting bigger profit sharing. Different companies. Apples to Oranges. Like JB and Delta. How many pilots does Delta have again? Aircraft? It seems everyone hired here prior to 3 years ago willingly came to work for a non union carrier, no?
01-26-2018, 07:09 AM
#5326
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 63
Originally Posted by Std Deviation
Been out with the flu...
I NEVER said we make too much money. I’m merely a student of human behavior. I pontificate on my observations. I don’t see a group of doctors at Baylor shouting that the docs at Parkland make more. A group of accountants at Deloitte squawking that those dogs over at Ernst and Young are getting bigger profit sharing. Different companies. Apples to Oranges. Like JB and Delta. How many pilots does Delta have again? Aircraft? It seems everyone hired here prior to 3 years ago willingly came to work for a non union carrier, no?
I NEVER said we make too much money. I’m merely a student of human behavior. I pontificate on my observations. I don’t see a group of doctors at Baylor shouting that the docs at Parkland make more. A group of accountants at Deloitte squawking that those dogs over at Ernst and Young are getting bigger profit sharing. Different companies. Apples to Oranges. Like JB and Delta. How many pilots does Delta have again? Aircraft? It seems everyone hired here prior to 3 years ago willingly came to work for a non union carrier, no?
Originally Posted by Std Deviation
I find the concept “industry average” laughable. Unless you’re a socialist. Do our flight attendants, rampers, and dispatchers get industry average? How about our CEO? Does he get it? Okay, so only the pilots should get it? Because we pay “industry average” for gates and fuel. Uh, okay.
Originally Posted by Std Deviation
I said we’re going to end up right in the middle. Between “industry average” and where we are now. I asked if we’re willing to burn the house down for $20K.
Originally Posted by Std Deviation
I'm a reasonable middle of the road guy that’s actually signed the front of a paycheck and not the back.
Originally Posted by Std Deviation
So let me paraphrase, “we want more money because the guys over there get more money even though our companies are totally different and we were fully cognizant of the pay at the time but damn my Delta neighbor got a new boat with his profit sharing so I want what he has.”
Originally Posted by Std Deviation
So welfare then? We want a handout? Have this conversation with someone outside of aviation and watch their head explode.
Again, NEVER EVER Said we were overpaid.
Not a Glover or a juicer. Watching the rhetoric on both sides and along for the ride.
Again, NEVER EVER Said we were overpaid.
Not a Glover or a juicer. Watching the rhetoric on both sides and along for the ride.
01-26-2018, 07:56 AM
#5328
Covfefe
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 3,001
Originally Posted by Southerner
The only thing that I disagree with there is the concept that by organizing you get market rate. Unions (by definition) create a false marketplace. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, because our rates would be far less if it weren't for unions creating the false marketplace. In this case you aren't getting "market rate." You're demanding a rate above market, and denying the company the ability to go to the wider market to shop around.
The RLA does provide us some protections too. If we weren't covered under it, we wouldn't be able to organize in "right to work" states, and also agency shop would be illegal in many states. Guaranteed, it would be more difficult to organize, and the company could bust a union more easily. That being said, there's room for improvement in the RLA.
Before you guys flame me, this is purely an academic discussion about what he says about market rate, and in no way is it a commentary on our current situation at this company.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The RLA does provide us some protections too. If we weren't covered under it, we wouldn't be able to organize in "right to work" states, and also agency shop would be illegal in many states. Guaranteed, it would be more difficult to organize, and the company could bust a union more easily. That being said, there's room for improvement in the RLA.
Before you guys flame me, this is purely an academic discussion about what he says about market rate, and in no way is it a commentary on our current situation at this company.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Management exploits people like you who don’t support the union that tries to even the playing field and overcome probably the most lopsided labor market in the country. Fortunately we have more and more strong willed pilots who know their worth who are countering you and your lanyardless ilk. Why do you think every pilot group is unionized? Why do you think jetblue management, along with every other airline management, spends millions each year on union busting? Because unions are the only means we have to overcome the unfair advantage management has. But keep spewing your nonsense about how the union creates a “false marketplace” for us. Robin thanks you and is proud of you and your juicer ilk for making his job easier to underpay pilots. While he has record profits on the highest margin in the industry, he continues to pay you 30-50% lower than your peers. FUPM.
01-26-2018, 08:37 AM
#5330
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,132
Originally Posted by ThreeStripe
I agree with everything but the Chuck Yeager reference. I don't want to be him and if you actually met him, you wouldn't either.
Sully? is a better reference?
I just read his bio on Wikipedia... he has pretty good credentials. Never met him personally though...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesley_Sullenberger
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