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Old 12-10-2008, 04:25 PM   #111  
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Originally Posted by PackTrip View Post
I didn't "loose"(SIC) a thing. Repeat after me. DATE OF HIRE MEANS NOTHING. Read the arbitrator explanation if you cannot understand that. I bet you didn't really "lose" either - you're just being a drama queen.

How much did your percentage change? (Mine went UP just shy of 1%). How many more widebodies do you now have access to (Since the DAL 767's are unfenced)? Go take a look the results - it might be surprising. I know they are not super-premium wide-bodies or anything like that, but the last I checked they have twin aisles and three man crews.

Those cities you want to fly to will likely be served by 767-300ER's flown out of Seattle and LAX.

How about that nice payraise you received?

If you look at the facts, you see you did alright and it was fair, but it is more fun to tell everyone "Woe is me".


First of all I would have retired at NWA in the top 3% about 175 or so. Now I will retire in the top 13% or about number 1600 or so. Over my career that will cost me about $750,000. Also quality of life will be alot less because where you bid is what it is all about. We have already had 200 retirements since this started that now moves DAL guys infront of me up into possible 330 seats. DOH means alot to me it may mean nothing to you. If it means nothing then why is your list based on it at your stand alone company. Why don't we start hiring guys right into 777a seats.

As for the pay raise I have already had this dispute. My huge 8 dollar and hour results in about 150 take home a month extra. If you consider that a huge pay raise then we are all in trouble.

I lost 1% on the list but it is the percentage that i lost over the years. My percentage gets worse every year compared to my yearly percentage at stand alone NWA. Ending up at 13% vs 3% is huge. Does it bother you that I have took a pretty good hit. Not been a drama queen at all. I guess the facts don't set well with you.

To put it bluntly, The DAL guys have had 2 seniority windfalls. The first being when your senior guys bailed. Hey iam happy for you guys on this. If those guys were still around, 85 hires would not be in the 200s. Now those same 85 hires did well in this arbitration. If it had gone date of hire they would have had 1220 NWA guys in front of them. SO that particular group made out extremely well.

As for 767, I have no desire to do the flying that it does. It is a good airplane and it is a wide body, just not the plane for me. I went from holding the 330a in a year or so to probably not being able to hold it for 5-7 years. Then I am 60 and will be gone I hope>

So the fact that I can't hold the 330A seat now is a loss for me in money and quality of life. Had my advancement potential due to NWA retirements remained the same, I would not have a beef. I would have been happy where i am now if I still had the move up potential due to NWA retirements which are much greater over the next 5-7 years

My bet is that we are not going to be one big happy family. It's done and its a pretty good screw job for me. Every NWA guy around me is ****ed.

Last edited by keenster; 12-10-2008 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 12-10-2008, 04:30 PM   #112  
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My bet is that we are not going to be one big happy family. It's done and its a pretty godd screw job for me. Every NWA guy around me is ****ed.
I lost 1.5% relative seniority. The NWA guys on either side of me gained 6%. They ain't too****ed.

As far as you statement about seniority windfall due to retirement, you are flat out wrong. There are few that would still be here because they would have had to retire anyway prior to the rule change. We benefitted from rapid expansion. Now, the 2 NWA guys on either side of me will benefit from that. I know you won't believe that, and frankly I don't care. But for you to wax so poetically over the A330, and your retirement number is myopic. Have a nice career.
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Old 12-10-2008, 04:50 PM   #113  
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Fact is that Bloch got it just about perfect and think that is why there were 273 NWA that got plug and play. Out of all of those early outs that DAL had only about 300 would still be here. The rest would have retired prior to Dec 13th last year when age 65 took effect.
Thus, the net gain by Delta was zero. Bloch completely leveled the field with the way he did the top of the list.
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Old 12-10-2008, 04:51 PM   #114  
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I lost 1.5% relative seniority. The NWA guys on either side of me gained 6%. They ain't too****ed.

As far as you statement about seniority windfall due to retirement, you are flat out wrong. There are few that would still be here because they would have had to retire anyway prior to the rule change. We benefitted from rapid expansion. Now, the 2 NWA guys on either side of me will benefit from that. I know you won't believe that, and frankly I don't care. But for you to wax so poetically over the A330, and your retirement number is myopic. Have a nice career.
I hope you are right about rapid expansion. But we may be in for rapid contraction if this economy does not change. A much bigger fish to worry about. I think that quite a few guys would still be here had they not bailed out early. tHE 210 guys at the top of you list range from 79-81 DOHs. I am sure there were more of them that left but hey I am glad for you guys on that.

Last edited by keenster; 12-10-2008 at 05:01 PM.
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Old 12-11-2008, 07:46 AM   #115  
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Originally Posted by keenster View Post
First of all I would have retired at NWA in the top 3% about 175 or so. Now I will retire in the top 13% or about number 1600 or so. Over my career that will cost me about $750,000. Also quality of life will be alot less because where you bid is what it is all about. We have already had 200 retirements since this started that now moves DAL guys infront of me up into possible 330 seats. DOH means alot to me it may mean nothing to you. If it means nothing then why is your list based on it at your stand alone company. Why don't we start hiring guys right into 777a seats.

As for the pay raise I have already had this dispute. My huge 8 dollar and hour results in about 150 take home a month extra. If you consider that a huge pay raise then we are all in trouble.

I lost 1% on the list but it is the percentage that i lost over the years. My percentage gets worse every year compared to my yearly percentage at stand alone NWA. Ending up at 13% vs 3% is huge. Does it bother you that I have took a pretty good hit. Not been a drama queen at all. I guess the facts don't set well with you.

To put it bluntly, The DAL guys have had 2 seniority windfalls. The first being when your senior guys bailed. Hey iam happy for you guys on this. If those guys were still around, 85 hires would not be in the 200s. Now those same 85 hires did well in this arbitration. If it had gone date of hire they would have had 1220 NWA guys in front of them. SO that particular group made out extremely well.

As for 767, I have no desire to do the flying that it does. It is a good airplane and it is a wide body, just not the plane for me. I went from holding the 330a in a year or so to probably not being able to hold it for 5-7 years. Then I am 60 and will be gone I hope>

So the fact that I can't hold the 330A seat now is a loss for me in money and quality of life. Had my advancement potential due to NWA retirements remained the same, I would not have a beef. I would have been happy where i am now if I still had the move up potential due to NWA retirements which are much greater over the next 5-7 years

My bet is that we are not going to be one big happy family. It's done and its a pretty good screw job for me. Every NWA guy around me is ****ed.
8 bucks an hour additional should equate to 8,000 dollars a year, or an extra $666 a month, using standard pilot jungle math.

Remember that although your percentage is diluted as you finish your career, you must remember how many more airplanes you have gained access to. FACT: Delta has more wide-bodies than NWA (I'm talking twin-aisle 777's and 767's). And you just got access to all of the 767's after SOC.

I know you like the 330 - and there is a strong chance Delta will buy more 330's. RA has stated he likes the 330 better than the 767-300ER. It carries more people and cargo. And your dreamliner orders will likely be converted to 777LR's - and flown by NWA pilots until the fence expires. Those LR's will likely show up before the 787 will - since it (787) is late, overweight, and under fuel economy.

Are you a commuter? Are any of the new domiciles going to help you?

I was having fun with you with the drama queen - I love that picture.

Have you considered what would have happened to your 330 seat if they parked the 747 freighters and you guys were still stand-alone?

All I'm saying is I think your glass is half-full vs. half-empty.

Delta treats us pretty well. Management (right now) is the best we've had in a while.

Guys on Delta flightdecks rarely whine about getting screwed...we talk about sports, guns, hobbies, golf, family, cooking, motorcycles, computers, music - whatever guys figure out they are both into... we rarely beeyotch about work.

We go out together and drink beer and eat and visit local attractions.

We wear our uniforms with pride, glad we work for a company that is still in business, and do everything we can to save the Company a buck so that we will survive another day. We push old ladies in wheelchairs and sometimes do jobs that aren't ours to help out others...We hope for massive profits due to our actions so we can ask for (and get) pay restoration in a future contract and profit sharing next year.

Did NWA have a possible 6% profit sharing payout? Well, you've got that now. That could be an extra 6 grand plus to your paycheck if we do well next year.

It's not gonna be so bad for you.
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Old 12-11-2008, 08:10 AM   #116  
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I am sure there were more of them that left but hey I am glad for you guys on that.
You guys.. is US guys now. You benefit too. Especially since there are no fences (of any note). I'll buy ya a beer in Red Square sometime.

Oh, and watch this.. I'm gonna man up and say I was wrong about the 6%. The data I had was old, so the percentage that the NWA guys moved was only 3%. 3.05% to be exact.

Steve
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Old 12-11-2008, 08:21 AM   #117  
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All,

I started this thread not as flamebait but from the info I had before everything was published officially. All I had heard was that it was relative with no dynamics. If I had it over I would have retitled the thread "list is forthcoming" If any of you have read my previous posts I have passionately defended nwa pilots, who we are, what kind of group we are and what we bring to the table. But the list is done now. It is what it is. So, maybe we should kill this thread and move on.

If the title of the thread is dal won. Well, aren't we all dal pilots now?
You titled the thread...becasue that what was on your heart and what you felt to be true.

We...NWA pilots have been screwed and when guys begin to figure it out...it will not be forgotten...in my opinion. I have lived the red-green show and it is hell and I think that attitude is coming your way. Those fences are only as good as long as the planes hang around. According to all of you Delta boys...787 is prob not going to show up...and the 400 is also on the way out...hello...and then wait for the downturn...you can't run the country with no money and smoke and mirrors. DOH & seniority is everything...everything.

You guys talk about realitive...I fly the 400 then I should be sitting with the same seniority number as your 777...since they are the same and pay the same right...but the Delta guys next to me are 6 years my junior and fly the 767/757. I was a 757 Captain...20 years ago.
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Old 12-11-2008, 08:42 AM   #118  
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It is not the "DAL Boys fault" that the the 747 is an old gas guzzerler and going away, nor is it our fault the the 787 is overweight, late and expensive. I guess we should all be glad the company is even considering buying some 777 in the near future.
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Old 12-11-2008, 08:54 AM   #119  
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You titled the thread...becasue that what was on your heart and what you felt to be true.

We...NWA pilots have been screwed and when guys begin to figure it out...it will not be forgotten...in my opinion. I have lived the red-green show and it is hell and I think that attitude is coming your way. Those fences are only as good as long as the planes hang around. According to all of you Delta boys...787 is prob not going to show up...and the 400 is also on the way out...hello...and then wait for the downturn...you can't run the country with no money and smoke and mirrors. DOH & seniority is everything...everything.

You guys talk about realitive...I fly the 400 then I should be sitting with the same seniority number as your 777...since they are the same and pay the same right...but the Delta guys next to me are 6 years my junior and fly the 767/757. I was a 757 Captain...20 years ago.

Pre-merger NW 747-400 Capt ...$177/HR
Pre-merger DL 777 Capt... $191/HR
(Source APC)
Post merger DL 777/747-400 pay $191/HR
Jan 1, 2009...$200/HR
(Source JCBA paytables)

Yep...you're screwed. I'd quit now. You're going to have a heart attack if you let making more money get to you. BTW all of your "facts" from your quote are not correct. Delta management released the nugget that the 787 might not be ready and DL may alter some future deliveries the "Delta boys" were just repeating this real "fact".

"DOH & seniority is everything...everything." Are you for real? I'd like to think there is more than this job out there.

You may be right that there could be hard times coming and I agree about the "smoke and mirrors". I once heard and agree this profession is a "great job and a terrible career". Furloughs?...been there done that in the mid 90's.
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Old 12-11-2008, 09:18 AM   #120  
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Ya'll crack me up! LOL

It's a done deal, nothing is going to change it. Time to move on and make the best off it. Look around the industry, it could be much worse.

Cheers fellas
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