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Old 12-11-2008, 09:23 AM   #121  
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Hi.

NWA Won:
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/me...4-nwa-won.html

cliff
YIP
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Old 12-11-2008, 09:28 AM   #122  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skysdlimit View Post
Pre-merger NW 747-400 Capt ...$177/HR
Pre-merger DL 777 Capt... $191/HR
(Source APC)
Post merger DL 777/747-400 pay $191/HR
Jan 1, 2009...$200/HR
(Source JCBA paytables)

Yep...you're screwed. I'd quit now. You're going to have a heart attack if you let making more money get to you. BTW all of your "facts" from your quote are not correct. Delta management released the nugget that the 787 might not be ready and DL may alter some future deliveries the "Delta boys" were just repeating this real "fact".

"DOH & seniority is everything...everything." Are you for real? I'd like to think there is more than this job out there.

You may be right that there could be hard times coming and I agree about the "smoke and mirrors". I once heard and agree this profession is a "great job and a terrible career". Furloughs?...been there done that in the mid 90's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superpilot92 View Post
Ya'll crack me up! LOL

It's a done deal, nothing is going to change it. Time to move on and make the best off it. Look around the industry, it could be much worse.

Cheers fellas
Excellent posts.

Redtail...a three man impartial arbitration panel decided that Date of Hire was not applicable in this case.

We are all one now. You'll do just fine, RedTail. Are you a commuter? If so, where do you live? Because I'm hearing 747's out of Atlanta. But skysdlimit is right...you are screwed...despite your pay raise and the fences that protect your job, you are screwed, so you had best retire...or at least keep stressing about this and ruin your health - so that you can get out of my way so I can move up.
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Old 12-11-2008, 10:11 AM   #123  
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Redtail,
My point is not whether it is fair or not fair. Trust me, the idea that I am now a thousand numbers junior to somebody that was hired at Dal nine months after me is a little hard to digest. The arbitraitors in the end ruled that the Dal date of hire was of higher value and worth than the Nwa date of hire. Period. Do I like it? No, but it is what it is and I, for one, am not going to turn into a bitter person and dwell on it for the next twenty years. I'll stay on the 330 until some dal guy bumps me and then I'll go to msp on the 57 and fly anc or whatever. My point is there is no sense in spending the rest of our days being bitter about it.

In the long run who made out better? Well, time will tell. More info will come out as time passes about what happened behind the scenes. We knew last spring what Dal's attitude was towards us, and it didn't change obviously per their one and only proposal, and thus we worked behind the scenes with Cal which would have left Dal out of the Skyteam not Cal. Nwa had the written agreements with Klm and the goldenshare at Cal thus we would kept the alliance with Klm/airfrance, leaving Dal as standalone or with United. Would the seniority have worked better with Cal? These are questions that will never be answered and should no longer be asked. This is where we are and my suggestion is let's just move on.
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Old 12-11-2008, 12:05 PM   #124  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redtail View Post
You titled the thread...becasue that what was on your heart and what you felt to be true.

We...NWA pilots have been screwed and when guys begin to figure it out...it will not be forgotten...in my opinion. I have lived the red-green show and it is hell and I think that attitude is coming your way. Those fences are only as good as long as the planes hang around. According to all of you Delta boys...787 is prob not going to show up...and the 400 is also on the way out...hello...and then wait for the downturn...you can't run the country with no money and smoke and mirrors. DOH & seniority is everything...everything.

You guys talk about realitive...I fly the 400 then I should be sitting with the same seniority number as your 777...since they are the same and pay the same right...but the Delta guys next to me are 6 years my junior and fly the 767/757. I was a 757 Captain...20 years ago.
Redtail-

I've seen a lot of opinions here, on the DALPA forum, and spoken with no less than 25 DL and NW pilots. Except for you, to a man, I get "we'll make it work", "let's wait and see", "we're gonna kick butt", and many shoulder shrugs. There's not a thing you or I can do about it now - the bell has been rung. I really haven't heard how bad anybody got "screwed", except from you.

Many of your comments thus far have been assumptions, and some of your statements of fact have been flat-out wrong.

Obviously, no one likes losing seniority in this business...I don't enjoy seeing my number over 3,300 higher than it was Sunday, but I realize DOH means nothing.

You now are a senior pilot at the largest and most powerful airline on the planet. IMHO, move on and enjoy the ride. Being an airline pilot doesn't define who you are - it's just what you do.

Peace
J

Last edited by Jughead; 12-11-2008 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 12-11-2008, 12:39 PM   #125  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus View Post
Redtail,
My point is not whether it is fair or not fair. Trust me, the idea that I am now a thousand numbers junior to somebody that was hired at Dal nine months after me is a little hard to digest. The arbitraitors in the end ruled that the Dal date of hire was of higher value and worth than the Nwa date of hire. Period. Do I like it? No, but it is what it is and I, for one, am not going to turn into a bitter person and dwell on it for the next twenty years. I'll stay on the 330 until some dal guy bumps me and then I'll go to msp on the 57 and fly anc or whatever. My point is there is no sense in spending the rest of our days being bitter about it.

In the long run who made out better? Well, time will tell. More info will come out as time passes about what happened behind the scenes. We knew last spring what Dal's attitude was towards us, and it didn't change obviously per their one and only proposal, and thus we worked behind the scenes with Cal which would have left Dal out of the Skyteam not Cal.
Nwa had the written agreements with Klm and the goldenshare at Cal thus we would kept the alliance with Klm/airfrance, leaving Dal as standalone or with United. Would the seniority have worked better with Cal? These are questions that will never be answered and should no longer be asked. This is where we are and my suggestion is let's just move on.
Opus,

For clarification.. just realize some of us pre-merger DAL pilots are behind pre-merger NWA pilots with a junior DOH and fell backwards in relative seniority (I believe mainly around the 50th percentile...my case anyway). So I guess my DOH wasn't exactly higher value than some pre-merger NWA. Generalized statements like yours are usually not totally true. This case is a good point. I am a late 1991 DAL hire behind many 1995 NWA hires. It is what it is. I personally am glad we merged with you guys and not CAL and definitely not LCC or UAL (I think there is some dysfunction going on with both those groups). NWA is probably the only major airline that the DOJ would have allowed a merger with due to overlap. I think I heard or read we only had 12 overlapping city pairs. I may be wrong...my wife tells me I'm wrong alot. However, we are now one monster of an global airline to contend with. I want to move on also but many on both sides see only their side.

BTW, do we get a mulligan? Lets do date of hire... I would be almost 300 numbers senior than I am now...hummm where do you suppose that number came from?
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Old 12-11-2008, 12:41 PM   #126  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redtail View Post
You titled the thread...becasue that what was on your heart and what you felt to be true.

We...NWA pilots have been screwed and when guys begin to figure it out...it will not be forgotten...in my opinion. I have lived the red-green show and it is hell and I think that attitude is coming your way. Those fences are only as good as long as the planes hang around. According to all of you Delta boys...787 is prob not going to show up...and the 400 is also on the way out...hello...and then wait for the downturn...you can't run the country with no money and smoke and mirrors. DOH & seniority is everything...everything.

You guys talk about realitive...I fly the 400 then I should be sitting with the same seniority number as your 777...since they are the same and pay the same right...but the Delta guys next to me are 6 years my junior and fly the 767/757. I was a 757 Captain...20 years ago.
If you were a Captain on the 757 20 years ago then you had to have at least 10 years with NWA. That would make you at least a '78 hire. There are a couple of guys flying the 757/767 with that seniority and do it for one reason ......because they are 1,2,3,4,5 on the airplane. They get what they want and don't want the international flying. So yes, the other DAL brethren are 777 Captains. You are like an old lady getting spooled up about the headline in a paper but failing to read the article.
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Old 12-11-2008, 02:02 PM   #127  
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sky,

Well said. I had not realized that any Dal pilot lost seniority in terms of date of hire. I guess my main point is that hey, it is what it is, I really hope we can move on. If any dal guys bid the 330 I hope we will have better things to discuss than 1800whahwhahwhah about the seniority.
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Old 12-11-2008, 03:15 PM   #128  
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Well at first look I lost 500 plus numbers to a Delta pilots 3 yrs my junior.and that was tough . But when I looked at the final list at age 65 my final number ends up the same as if I was still NWA,below number 50, all those delta guys are all retired and I virtually end up the same. So in the end for me it is not DAL won or NWA won, I won, because I was fortunate to be hired young have my retirment for now, and still have a Job.
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Old 12-12-2008, 04:15 AM   #129  
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Quote:
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sky,

Well said. I had not realized that any Dal pilot lost seniority in terms of date of hire. I guess my main point is that hey, it is what it is, I really hope we can move on. If any dal guys bid the 330 I hope we will have better things to discuss than 1800whahwhahwhah about the seniority.
I totally concur.

I promise not to bid the 330 unless it comes to ATL and I can hold senior Captain, then all bets are off.

Well got to go fly...
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Old 12-12-2008, 05:56 AM   #130  
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Quote:
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With a fence on the whale, you should be able to exercise your original seniority rights at NW for a period of 5 years, and you will have original NW seniority for the 787. DOH would have given you a huge windfall at the expense of DL pilots.
The five year fence would have helped if the a330 was fenced. The only guys that fence helps are the senior A330 captians that will be able to bid 747-400. It may be possible that DAL guys do not want to fly the 330 and not bid it so that it cycles down to me. Who knows Hope so. Also the age 65 thing cuts into to the effect of the 5 year fence in that approx 3 years of the fence guys are not hitting 65 yet. Hopefully those guys go earlier than 65. Yes I may be able to bid 767 capt and that may not be all bad. Ah yes, there could be a chance to fly 787 but my guess is that the 787 or the 777 will replace the 400 not moving anyone up. Hope I am really wrong about that. My loss is where I end up at the end which post merger is 13% vs premerger of 3.5%. That translates into a lot of bucks and huge quality of life. Its done, took a good hit, and time to move on. This used to be a great career and you would tell young folks that they should become airline pilots. Since 9/11 it has turned in to just a job, can't recommend it anymore. With this list my job seems to have gotten worse not better, but maybe I am wrong about that. Hopefully things will turn around. Good luck to us all and may the economy turn around.

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