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Old 04-23-2015, 02:00 PM   #9851  
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Originally Posted by skypilot35 View Post
Most people know that OO is the profitable side of INC. That is mostly due to the poor contracts that were bought with XJT. What happens when the XJT contracts expire? There is no way to ever recoup the purchase cost by selling off XJT and its assets. These guys are all about money in the pockets. They are also accountable to the share holders.

A consolidated operating certificate, pilot group, aircraft fleet, training facility is practical. I cannot imagine that this option has never been discussed or considered. Maybe not next year, but within the next 5 years. I would like to see the 5 year plan. We will have 2 fleet types. CRJ / ERJ (not sure about the MRJ).

Just to add, it wasn't just poor contract bought with the purchase of xjt. Skywest literally negotiated the contract xjt had with cal before they bought them. Thanks to the whipsaw.


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Originally Posted by Squallrider View Post
They would need huge fences because the costs to train and force displace people would be huge. This discussion has been going on since expressjet was bought. Synergies would be a pro if you think expressjet will be around, and with all the 50s they have its not likely unless they become small and then the value of synergy goes down anyway. I agree it's all about money but they can't keep losing it either by pouring it into expressjet

No merger ever forces a flush of aircraft, seat and domicile. For example, the current merger stipulation between ASA and xjt does not allow any displacements because of the seniority list integration. That would only be the product of any subsequent a vacancies.


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Originally Posted by Squallrider View Post
Economies of scale involves large number of aircraft (training costs/maintenance etc), if the 145 shrinks to nothing (believe its over a hundred coming off express jet) you lose economies of scale. If you eliminate or reduce departments that are associated with the 145 which is every department HR, scheduling,maintenance, training, then you lose all the synergy. If we merged with Expressjet, how would we gain syngery in the training department? We aren't suddenly going to fit 145 sims in SLC or cross train instructors, the cost would be the same because facilities and personnel wouldn't change. How many people are in our scheduling department now? Considering how long our bids come out Im guessing not many (joke).



As for synergy savings, even a small xjt operation has an over head cost. But it would be a larger cost as a percentage of the operation because you wouldn't be spreading those costs over more aircraft. So there will always be synergy savings. More so with a smaller operation.

Last edited by Nevets; 04-23-2015 at 02:18 PM.
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Old 04-23-2015, 02:01 PM   #9852  
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If Skywest decides to merge it would only be for staffing purposes and would take years and years to accomplish. The 145 and the 200 are on the way out unless someone can find a way to make them fly on hopes and dreams.
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Old 04-23-2015, 02:14 PM   #9853  
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Originally Posted by Squallrider View Post
If Skywest decides to merge it would only be for staffing purposes and would take years and years to accomplish. The 145 and the 200 are on the way out unless someone can find a way to make them fly on hopes and dreams.
Again, I think you are right on all counts.

From a $$$ perspective, as XJT shrinks it becomes more expensive. OO has been in business for a long time. I think in part it may be luck, but I also believe they have some foresight.

And I agree it would take years and years to merge the pilot group especially if we were unionized. However, it would only take months to merge everything else.

One caveat: If this pay package passes a merger will not happen as quickly....according to my magic 8-ball.
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Old 04-23-2015, 02:22 PM   #9854  
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I was told that is why the company just decided to let ASA and XJT stay separate. ASA runs the CRJ and XJT runs the ERJ. This person told me that the company was unable to bid for new flying for the 175 because they couldn't get a rate to use for Express. This was a typical corporate person that had been brainwashed to believe that the Express Jet pilots were being so unreasonable by wanting to keep what was in their contract and not just take concessions to "help out"

My thinking is that they let the attrition go and see how many they can get to walk away as the contract expires. Then deal with what is left at the end. Maybe try to get some people to jump ship with the higher first year wages, signing bonus and chance at upgrade.

I'm sure I will get hammered with this, but that is just what I was told. I tried to tell this person how ****ty the company was treating the pilots, and that unions were not the devil. But the koolaid is strong....
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Old 04-23-2015, 02:31 PM   #9855  
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I was told that is why the company just decided to let ASA and XJT stay separate. ASA runs the CRJ and XJT runs the ERJ. This person told me that the company was unable to bid for new flying for the 175 because they couldn't get a rate to use for Express. This was a typical corporate person that had been brainwashed to believe that the Express Jet pilots were being so unreasonable by wanting to keep what was in their contract and not just take concessions to "help out"

My thinking is that they let the attrition go and see how many they can get to walk away as the contract expires. Then deal with what is left at the end. Maybe try to get some people to jump ship with the higher first year wages, signing bonus and chance at upgrade.

I'm sure I will get hammered with this, but that is just what I was told. I tried to tell this person how ****ty the company was treating the pilots, and that unions were not the devil. But the koolaid is strong....
This is why I think the CRJ flying may go to XJT/ASA.
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Old 04-23-2015, 02:39 PM   #9856  
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I was told that is why the company just decided to let ASA and XJT stay separate. ASA runs the CRJ and XJT runs the ERJ. This person told me that the company was unable to bid for new flying for the 175 because they couldn't get a rate to use for Express. This was a typical corporate person that had been brainwashed to believe that the Express Jet pilots were being so unreasonable by wanting to keep what was in their contract and not just take concessions to "help out"



My thinking is that they let the attrition go and see how many they can get to walk away as the contract expires. Then deal with what is left at the end. Maybe try to get some people to jump ship with the higher first year wages, signing bonus and chance at upgrade.



I'm sure I will get hammered with this, but that is just what I was told. I tried to tell this person how ****ty the company was treating the pilots, and that unions were not the devil. But the koolaid is strong....

They have pay rates for 175s (or any large RJ) from both sides. So he was either lying to you or ignorant of facts.
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Old 04-23-2015, 02:48 PM   #9857  
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They have pay rates for 175s (or any large RJ) from both sides. So he was either lying to you or ignorant of facts.
XJT has a pay rate for the E175? What is it?

If CC said, "We want to give you guys the E175s tomorrow", do you have a set rate for it or would it have to be negotiated? I imagine it would have to go through a negotiation committee.
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Old 04-23-2015, 03:16 PM   #9858  
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XJT has a pay rate for the E175? What is it?

If CC said, "We want to give you guys the E175s tomorrow", do you have a set rate for it or would it have to be negotiated? I imagine it would have to go through a negotiation committee.

They "negotiated" the pay rates for them a couple of years ago when management said they wanted rates for them. That triggered section 23 of our contract that basically says they negotiate pay and work rules for 30 days and if there is no agreement it goes to arbitration. The arbitrator ruled and the rates are part of that ruling. The rates are $2 more than our 145 rates along with the other work rules (mainly PBS) that came about with that ruling. So yes, if they wanted to place those aircraft at LXJT, they can easily do it.
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Old 04-23-2015, 03:21 PM   #9859  
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They "negotiated" the pay rates for them a couple of years ago when management said they wanted rates for them. That triggered section 23 of our contract that basically says they negotiate pay and work rules for 30 days and if there is no agreement it goes to arbitration. The arbitrator ruled and the rates are part of that ruling. The rates are $2 more than our 145 rates along with the other work rules (mainly PBS) that came about with that ruling. So yes, if they wanted to place those aircraft at LXJT, they can easily do it.
So the E175 pay rate at XJT would be $99 for an 18 year Captain?
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Old 04-23-2015, 03:24 PM   #9860  
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That's $11 less than OO.
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