Cujo665

I do not necessarily disagree. Having dealt with F&H at a previous carrier, ATSG is not doing themselves any favors retaining them in the midst of a pilot shortage with so many other options available.
It's still a great job, things always get a bit more tense at contract time at any airline. This isn't totally unexpected and it happens everywhere.
What doesn't happen everywhere is selecting F&H solutions. However, since both ATI & ABX have been using F&H for some time already, this isn't entirely unexpected either.
It is however, disappointing. Not enough to not take the job though. You can pour through these message boards and every pilot group from Silver to FedEx has gripes around contract time.

That all said, we are hiring. If you stay out of the internal politics, it's a very good job.

ObadiahDogberry

I don't doubt that it is a good job. I have a few friends over there, and they are quite happy with it. But joining a company right when they retain F&H to handle their union busting is certainly not a great time to start. When they throw out the carrot of eliminating home basing, one of the best perks, in exchange for a new aircraft type, then honestly, the appeal of the job is almost eliminated. Given how long U.S. pilot contracts take to hammer out, you are looking at your first 3 to 5 years of being full of angry rhetoric with a possible end game that eliminates one of the most attractive aspects of working there. Sadly, may have to lean towards passing.

JohnBurke

Why?

Dangling a carrot does not change a contract or a lifestyle, or anything else, if no one bites the carrot. If the current contract is home basing, and the company (or representatives thereof) propose eliminating home basing, the proposal does nothing. If it does nothing, how can this be "less attractive?"

It is what it is. Nothing more.

Cujo665

would you turn down a job at AA? They use F&H currently too. What about Delta? They’ve used them too. Stop focusing on the small stuff. Let the negotiators do their jobs. They know from polling what will and won’t pass. It was just a proposal the company made, nothing to make career plans on. I’d be shocked if a company ever opened with something actually acceptable.

for anybody that has or is expecting a class date, hit those CBT’s hard and often. There is very very little systems teaching in ground school, so the CBT is important to understand each system. You’ll find the instructors extremely willing to help if you’re stuck and not grasping something fully. Feel free to PM if something isn’t making sense. They’ll also include in the home study some limitations and profiles stuff to study before arriving too. The limitations will be in the type oral, the profiles in fixed base sim, and full flight sim. The better you can regurgitate the limitations and profiles the easier it will go. There will usually be some unofficial handouts and/or data files filtered out during class to help with oral prep, as well as access to company “how to” style videos on everything from FMC preflight loading to flying approaches. A great deal of info gets compressed into basically two weeks before fixed and full flight sims.

to those joining us these next few months, welcome aboard. You won’t regret it. Hope to meet many of you around the schoolhouse.

ObadiahDogberry

The problem is the unknown. For some of us, home basing is a very big deal. Now, losing that perk has been tossed on to the table. It may not go away, but it also could. Why gamble when there are other options with less risks? Also, avoiding a pool with those sharks at F&H is always a good thing (yes, I have dealt with them before). The point is that while the job may be a good job, and it may suit some people very well, we are in a market where we can afford to be a bit picky. From where I sit, ATSG bringing in F&H to handle their contract negotiations is a clear indication that ATSG wants to fight a war at a time when things are not in their favor. That does not instill a lot of confidence. I may still accept a class date. But this certainly is making me thing twice about it.

Cujo665

you think that isn't tossed on the table at every carrier that has it?

ObadiahDogberry

Of course it has been tossed about in the past, and most likely will be tossed out in the future. I am not trying to claim or pretend it is not. But it is known that as of today, in a pilot friendly market, it is currently on the table at Omni. Again, why gamble when there are plenty of other options where it is not currently on the table, or when new contracts have just been signed? I am not being critical of anyone who feels the job is best for them. More power to you and I hope it is a good fit or you. My friends are quite happy there, and I may still accept the offer. But again, stuff like this, and the introduction of F&H (and having dealt with them before) does give me pause to think a bit more about it. This isn't 2002, or 2009, when you took any job you could find.

JohnBurke

Home basing only goes away if the union agrees to it; a contractual matter doesn't get nullified simply because the opposite side of the table makes an offer, and any tentative agreement must be ratified by the pilot body, first.

If one faces any opponent, whether in negotiations or on the battlefield, with the assumption that the opponent is formidable and cannot be defeated, then one has already lost; one has surrendered. Negotiating in any environment is back and forth. Ground already held isn't given up except by choice.

Your comments remind me of chicken little's falling sky. The sky is not actually falling. Any insinuation to the contrary is not fact, but suggestion. Offers and counteroffers.

I haven't a bone in this chicken, and from your comments, neither do you. You seem very concerned about someone else's dinner plate, so far as to be talking yourself and others out of the job. It's almost as if you want to do the negotiating. No doubt the Omni pilot group has a qualified team to negotiate on their behalf, and no doubt the negotiating committee keeps their members informed. As an outsider, I'd be out of my depth to argue here for or against, as are you. You're talking about steering people away based on your perceptions of a company where you don't work. Your previous comments since you interviewed last year indicate that you waited in a pool, and accepted employment elsewhere. Why the fixation?

The sky isn't falling. Best not to sell the idea that it is, to others.

ObadiahDogberry

I never pulled myself out of the pool, and now I have received a few offers of class dates. I have always liked the idea of Omni and even though I do have a pretty good job, I am still intrigued and am considering accepting the offer of a January class date. So yes, I do have a vested interest in what is going on there, which is why I have the fixation.

I know this is not a done deal, I know it has to be negotiated, I know this is a process of offers and counter offers. My point is that ATSG has brought in a law firm that specializes in long and nasty fights with employees. I have dealt with F&H before, so I do have first hand experience. The thought of starting off my career at Omni with a nasty 3 to 5 year battle with F&H is not exactly enticing. Starting off a new career at Omni knowing the opening salvo in the battle is pulling one of the most attractive aspects of the contract (for me personally) is another reason to stop and think about it again. Perhaps to you saying maybe I should pause and think twice sounds exactly like saying the sky is falling, but the two seem quite different to me.

dera

It's not a "nasty 3 to 5 year battle". The Omni CBA is great, if you have to work under it for 5 years, what's the problem?