I do not believe that it matters whether you are regular or reserve, as far as the pay is concerned, once L9 is triggered. Being triggered on an LC day absolutely does not matter for L4 pay, so I don’t know why it would matter for L9. Happy to be corrected, if someone has a reference?

 

Quoting you because it was the last one. Fangs, there is a lot going on in SRH example 6. I’ll break it down in a second.

But overall: REG pilots are on off days/time immediately after rotation release. So, as soon as a REG pilot is rerouted and scheduled to release >4h late, that duty period gets L8, as do all duty periods that infringe on a REG day off.

RES pilots return to LC status until 2359 of their last LC day. Example: scheduled release on the last LC day at 1200 base time. Rerouted to release 1900 base time, still on a LC day. The trigger of “interrupted an X day” is not met.

I’ll say it again, just in case: if a rerouted duty period does not infringe on an X day, on a duty period by duty period basis, L9 is not due for that duty period.

The SRH language only covers REG. They don’t do a good job of covering RES at all.

 

Longer answer. The two paragraphs have different triggers.



PWA 23.L.8



A rerouted regular pilot who is not scheduled to release within four hours of the scheduled release of the last duty period of their original rotation (the “time limitation”) will receive single pay and credit (and/or the applicable pay, no credit for a GS, GSWC, SS, PBSPR, IA, or IAWC) for the rotation as flown, plus single pay no credit for any duty period(s) that extends beyond such time limitation.



PWA 23.L.9



9. A rerouted reserve pilot who is not scheduled to release within four hours of the scheduled release of the last duty period of their original rotation will receive single pay and credit (or the applicable pay, no credit for a GS, GSWC, IA, or IAWC) for the rotation as flown, plus single pay no credit (in addition to any other form of pay for the bid period) for any duty period that extends beyond such four hour limitation and into either:

a. an X-day, or

b. a regular line day-off.



23.L.9 is not triggered until a duty period infringes on an X day. It does not matter if a break in duty infringes on an X day.



If the rerouted duty period releases >4 hours late on a LC day, no L9 pay is due for that duty period because an X day was not infringed by that duty period.



In SRH example 6, the duty period ends at 2059 since the DH was removed (missed DH). Therefore, for a REG pilot, the trigger is met because their regular line days-off started on this calendar day.



If you have the same rotation for RES, their day is a LC day until 2359. The removal of the DH triggers RRPY calculations but no segment was flown. No L4 pay for the duty period. Since the duty period was on a LC day, the trigger for L9 is not met until the next duty period. If say a segment was added, and that release was past 2359 adjusted for base time, then that duty period would trigger L9 pay.

 

Nowhere in any reroute language is "calendar day" mentioned, but you used it when explaining reroute pay. Reroute pay only deals in duty periods. Duty periods CAN exist for RES that infringe an X-day without going into a new calendar day(X-days starting other than midnight.) I don't want to muddy the waters on this though, so I'll agree with you that a RES in example 6 is definitely still not on an X-day when duty ends on day 4. And I know that the reroute actually began on day 4.

Here's what does NOT make sense to me though. I'm going to make the language more plain by removing the outline format and just read the sentences straight:

L8:
plus single pay no credit for any duty period(s) that extends beyond such time limitation.
L9
plus single pay no credit for any duty period(s) that extends beyond such time limitation AND into either into an X-day or line day off.

So check the logic for me.
L8 has only 1 requirement to pay for a duty period: >4 hours.
L9 has 2 requirements: >4 hours AND into X-day(or line day off).

So since we're chopping it up by duty periods, WHY is the REG pilot paid L8 pay for day 4 when the rerouted duty period on day 4 actually finished EARLIER than originally scheduled? THAT duty period did not pass the logic test of >4 hours from above.

(P.S. I'm not trying to screw pilots on L8. I'm trying to understand what's keeping RES from getting L9 here.)

 

Because they are on a day off as soon as released. So the trigger is met as soon as their rotation is >4 hours late regardless of duty period. But the RES pilot on the same rotation is not on a duty period that interrupts their X day until the next day.

And yes, calendar days matter because that is how LC/X day are started (unless you have a PR).

I don’t know how better to explain the difference. I would suggest speaking to SK, but he’ll tell you the same thing…you don’t get paid L9 if you’re on a LC day even if the trip releases a day later on an X day.

 

I really do appreciate you sticking with me on this over several pages of APC. And I think you're right that I need to reach out to SK etc.

As you said, I wish there were more RES examples for L9 pay, rather than just doing L8 examples.

I'd also be curious about another example similar to the one we were discussing but it's a 4-day trip with a day-3 reroute that turns it into a 5-day. REG pilot wasn't "off" on day 3, if you see what I'm driving at.

 

23L8 for the original last duty period, 23L8 for the new last duty period.

I am not on the scheduling committee, but I have a very strong grasp of REG/RES reroute differences…and how L4, L8, and L9 pay. You might say I know the “application” of these pay items.

 

A curiosity of mine is that as someone relatively new here, L8/L9 has been around for a long time, and L4 is new in C2019. Yet L4 is waaaay easier to calculate. L4 is also a lot more common.

I'm both surprised that there are not more L8/L9 guru's out there given it's been around a lot longer, and also not surprised since it's more rare (the whole >4 hours thing.) The language around L8/L9 is also more ambiguous (as evidenced by these last few pages.)

Thank you, DALPA, for 23.L.4.

 

Yup this is it. I got L8 this week and the total was exactly the value of the original last duty period plus the value of the added duty period on my day off. I have no idea whether that is correct per the PWA, but every time I've had L8 it has been this way.

 

If you thought I was done, I'm not quite.

Back to SRH example #6. Assume RES pilot. L9 is triggered because "not scheduled to release within four hours of the scheduled release of the last duty period".

Ok, so now we have to consider duty periods.

Clearly Day 5 pays L9. We agree.

But what if Day 4 duty period then DELAYS into the X-day? L9 was already triggered because Day 5 scheduled >4 hours.

I don't see any language controlling duty-period specific "scheduled" times. I only see the word "scheduled" as it pertains to the release of the last duty period (day 5) triggering L9.

I believe that, if you take example #6 in the SRH, and it's a RES pilot, and day 4 delays past midnight, that day 4 pays L9 (in addition to day 5.) Because the "scheduled" release was already past >4 hours, and now you have to consider any and all duty periods that touch X-days. Just as you would REG pilots that touch "off" days.