Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
03-31-2012 | 05:20 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
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From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
03-31-2012 | 05:26 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,874
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From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
Flamer,
I don't believe that a 43% pay raise and 100% scope recapture is attainable in 5 years. By anyone, ALPA or otherwise. The APA wrote that opera and it ends with the fat lady singing the blues. If a lot of guys felt that way, even that wouldn't matter, because the NMB would never let one airline leapfrog every other airline on the planet by such a significant margin.
I don't believe that a 43% pay raise and 100% scope recapture is attainable in 5 years. By anyone, ALPA or otherwise. The APA wrote that opera and it ends with the fat lady singing the blues. If a lot of guys felt that way, even that wouldn't matter, because the NMB would never let one airline leapfrog every other airline on the planet by such a significant margin.
I don't know what category you're in... but take a look at your W2 from last year and compare it to the W2 of a typical SWA pilot (over $230K for a Captain and over $140K for a First Officer). I'll bet if you're a narrowbody pilot who doesn't get a really large number of greenslips that it takes a heck of a lot more than 11% to reach that level.
03-31-2012 | 05:28 AM
At home on the maddog!
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,874
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From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
Sorry I didn't win the lottery, not buyin Delta, you guys will not be owned, acl sorry about the master and commander oh captain my captain stuff.
I was planning on one hell of a section 6 though! then resigning after the ta was sent to vote. I would need to sell my stock, wall st would not like what I had done.
I was planning on one hell of a section 6 though! then resigning after the ta was sent to vote. I would need to sell my stock, wall st would not like what I had done.
03-31-2012 | 07:06 AM
Underboob King
Joined: May 2005
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From: Guppy Commander
I did my high performance checkout in a Beech Baron with a pair of 300 hp engines modded onto it. VROOM! 
Other than that, there's no way I can one up teaching in a Mooney, haha.
I did fly charters into ATL on a Turbo Saratoga quite a bit while I was in college, and subsequently taught other new pilots on the charter op on it. It was funny having to turn on the air conditioning to use as a speed brake to help slow down to make the landing gear speed of 132 knots.
My favorite story flying into and out of ATL on those charters was the tower controller calling me "heavy" on one occasion. I was behind a 767- with another 767 behind me- and he cleared me into position saying "Saratoga 32TE heavy, position and hold, caution wake turbulence preceding heavy 767. He cleared me for takeoff, and then cautioned the 767 behind me on "Preceding heavy piper Saratoga."
Other than that, there's no way I can one up teaching in a Mooney, haha.
I did fly charters into ATL on a Turbo Saratoga quite a bit while I was in college, and subsequently taught other new pilots on the charter op on it. It was funny having to turn on the air conditioning to use as a speed brake to help slow down to make the landing gear speed of 132 knots.
My favorite story flying into and out of ATL on those charters was the tower controller calling me "heavy" on one occasion. I was behind a 767- with another 767 behind me- and he cleared me into position saying "Saratoga 32TE heavy, position and hold, caution wake turbulence preceding heavy 767. He cleared me for takeoff, and then cautioned the 767 behind me on "Preceding heavy piper Saratoga."
the one i was in was a M-20S model, 244 hp, dual axis autopilot and upgraded cockpit. it was my favorite plane to go out and fly. new students to the plane could make for interesting days though lol, that thing would porpoise like crazy if you landed wrong. I watched a buddy of mines student porpoise so bad he bent the prop on with a prop strike, then took back off and flew around the pattern. bent an inch on the prop and put the plane down for a month....
Last edited by Superpilot92; 03-31-2012 at 07:33 AM.
03-31-2012 | 07:28 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: Light Chop
Recap, rumor is we've gotten a 717 deal with SWA in place, that the terms for Delta are highly highly favorable and DALPA is being asked for scope concessions to bring it on the line, right?
But since we're giving scope up on the bottom end we need to do it on the top end and with all the JV's it sure seems as if we are sharing those super premium widebodies.
In essence, DAL has secured 717s but to bring them to mainline is to make a concession to us so what will we concede in return?
Now, if this is true, what does that say?To me it says the demarcation line between DCI and mainline is not at the 76 seat limit where we think it is.
To me it says like the DC9-30 is no different than the 65 seat DC9-14 that preceded it decades ago. Once off the mainline property is never to come back unless its outsourced.
The 717 is a DC9-30 in size, so to bring it to mainline is to make a concession.
I guess whoever mentioned that they didn't want to see anything smaller than the MD-88 at mainline is getting their way minus the grandfathered fleet of 737-700s and A319s and outgoing DC9-50s:
So the mainline vs DCI demarcation line is probably 150 seats or less minus grandfathered equipment:To me it says like the DC9-30 is no different than the 65 seat DC9-14 that preceded it decades ago. Once off the mainline property is never to come back unless its outsourced.
The 717 is a DC9-30 in size, so to bring it to mainline is to make a concession.
I guess whoever mentioned that they didn't want to see anything smaller than the MD-88 at mainline is getting their way minus the grandfathered fleet of 737-700s and A319s and outgoing DC9-50s:
But since we're giving scope up on the bottom end we need to do it on the top end and with all the JV's it sure seems as if we are sharing those super premium widebodies.
Therefore, and to abuse this post to help foster a hatred of buckets , the first 150 seat bucket is to be outsourced. The next 150 seat bucket (151-300) is to be exclusively insourced, and the third bucket of 301 seats or more is to be shared with our friends.
That's what this concession for 717s rumors says to me.
fwiw, I'm not saying the 717 is to be outsourced. From the beginning of this rumor it has been clearly stated there would be a quest for a single category because the economic advantage of this aircraft required bringing it into the 88/90 fleet. However, if the EMB-195 became the EMB-200 that sat 117, do you think it would come here automatically like the 717? Evidently not, so to "give us" the 717 is seen as a concession if this rumor is true.
, the first 150 seat bucket is to be outsourced. The next 150 seat bucket (151-300) is to be exclusively insourced, and the third bucket of 301 seats or more is to be shared with our friends. That's what this concession for 717s rumors says to me.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 03-31-2012 at 07:44 AM.
03-31-2012 | 07:31 AM
Sho me da money!
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 947
Likes: 0
From: B25, Left
Teaching in this is always fun! Rare to find people that do not already have a round motor background, so it usually falls into the mode of JDDAS (just dont do anything stupid) Best twin trainer in the world IMHO. Clearly why the USAF hung onto them into the early 60's.
Granted not as sexy as a Mooney, I still can not afford to rent one of those!
03-31-2012 | 07:38 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
What is that thing, a B-25?
Not a Beech, AT-10.
Not a Beech, AT-10.
03-31-2012 | 07:41 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Recap, rumor is we've gotten a 717 deal with SWA in place, that the terms for Delta are highly highly favorable and DALPA is being asked for scope concessions to bring it on the line, right?
But since we're giving scope up on the bottom end we need to do it on the top end and with all the JV's it sure seems as if we are sharing those super premium widebodies.
Therefore, what belongs to mainline is 150-300 seats. The rest is to be outsourced or shared.
If the scope concession rumor is true.
In essence, DAL has secured 717s but to bring them to mainline is to make a concession to us so what will we concede in return?
Now, if this is true, what does that say?To me it says the demarcation line between DCI and mainline is not at the 76 seat limit where we think it is.
To me it says like the DC9-30 is no different than the 65 seat DC9-14 that preceded it decades ago. Once off the mainline property is never to come back unless its outsourced.
The 717 is a DC9-30 in size, so to bring it to mainline is to make a concession.
I guess whoever mentioned that they didn't want to see anything smaller than the MD-88 at mainline is getting their way minus the grandfathered fleet of 737-700s and A319s and outgoing DC9-50s:
So the mainline vs DCI demarcation line is probably 150 seats or less minus grandfathered equipment:To me it says like the DC9-30 is no different than the 65 seat DC9-14 that preceded it decades ago. Once off the mainline property is never to come back unless its outsourced.
The 717 is a DC9-30 in size, so to bring it to mainline is to make a concession.
I guess whoever mentioned that they didn't want to see anything smaller than the MD-88 at mainline is getting their way minus the grandfathered fleet of 737-700s and A319s and outgoing DC9-50s:
But since we're giving scope up on the bottom end we need to do it on the top end and with all the JV's it sure seems as if we are sharing those super premium widebodies.
Therefore, what belongs to mainline is 150-300 seats. The rest is to be outsourced or shared.
If the scope concession rumor is true.
The CRJ and the EMB are 100 to 122 seat TYPE CERTIFICATES. Management, the FAA and every one else in the business sees these airplanes as Types. Using that metric Giambusso, then Moak, ceded 100 seat flying a decade ago.
ALPA has been playing this game of "we want to fly this and will protect those jobs" and "we don't want to fly that and we will try to limit them" for years.
We will see what happens. ALPA has a tough road these next 12 to 24 months. I am sure they are aware their future on the property depends on how Section 1 is handled. Combine this threat with the TWA lawsuit and ALPA is facing challenges which are existential.
03-31-2012 | 07:48 AM
Sho me da money!
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 947
Likes: 0
From: B25, Left
Yes B-25, and thanks to Tallmantz aviation in the late 60's early 70's, 30 or so airframes were saved for the movie Catch-22. This is one of them and on the West Coast several flying today are from that movie. Have flown with a few low time Private Multi pilots (some owners) in this aircraft and they do surprisingly well. Speed is your friend in this plane, but the most fun I have ever had flying. Thank god my wife gets it, and as long as I take the kids so she can go to the SPA we are good!
03-31-2012 | 07:52 AM
Sho me da money!
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 947
Likes: 0
From: B25, Left
Excellent post and it correlates with a point we've been making for years ...
The CRJ and the EMB are 100 to 122 seat TYPE CERTIFICATES. Management, the FAA and every one else in the business sees these airplanes as Types. Using that metric Giambusso, then Moak, ceded 100 seat flying a decade ago.
ALPA has been playing this game of "we want to fly this and will protect those jobs" and "we don't want to fly that and we will try to limit them" for years.
We will see what happens. ALPA has a tough road these next 12 to 24 months. I am sure they are aware their future on the property depends on how Section 1 is handled. Combine this threat with the TWA lawsuit and ALPA is facing challenges which are existential.
The CRJ and the EMB are 100 to 122 seat TYPE CERTIFICATES. Management, the FAA and every one else in the business sees these airplanes as Types. Using that metric Giambusso, then Moak, ceded 100 seat flying a decade ago.
ALPA has been playing this game of "we want to fly this and will protect those jobs" and "we don't want to fly that and we will try to limit them" for years.
We will see what happens. ALPA has a tough road these next 12 to 24 months. I am sure they are aware their future on the property depends on how Section 1 is handled. Combine this threat with the TWA lawsuit and ALPA is facing challenges which are existential.
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