I don't think Envoy will be subjected to a second bankruptcy. What I think will happen is the lack of new hires will eventually force the company to address the flow.

If you think it can't be touched, look at the 2000/2001 flow thru guys who actually had a seniority number but were stuck at Eagle for an additional 15 years. Yes, it was a different situation but AA/Eagle withheld these guys. If they need 1500 total to operate the airline, they will not continuously release additional bodies below the 1500 if they cannot replace them.

 

Personally, I don't think a BK is the most likely path. Once staffing gets critical there, all it will take is a sit down and any number of more unpleasant scenarios could be laid out for Envoy ALPA then agreement to meter the flow to lower levels as part of a stand alone plan or consolidation with another carrier. In Envoy's defense, they will really have no choice the next time unless they can pull a genie out of the bottle to invent a steady throng of 35-40 new-hires in perpetuity.

Caveat Emptor.

 

If I remember correctly, the 1113 was proposed to the pilot group during bankruptcy, not outside of 1113. Your facts are slightly off. Carry-on!

 

it was what the union came back to the pilots with, it was never brought to the judge. union was paid off and so were the mec. pilots told the mec to take it to the judge.

 

Nope, I was dead on. Had many a discussion about this here and on EL at the time. As I said, there was no Envoy 1113, only the threat of it. ALPA blew smoke up the collective fanny's of the pilot group convincing them jt was better to take concessions outside of it (the submission of it to Judge Lane). ALPA took the worse instead of the bad as arguably, AMR wouldn't have likely gotten much with the 1113 process because A. Envoy pilots contract was competitive, if not industry trailing and B. Envoy was in and of itself profitable. ALPA just didn't want to expend money and Moak subsequently proved to Envoy pilots what ALPA was about concerning where they stood in ALPA's view with that infamous letter to you. It said in a nutshell, PLAY BALL !

The MEC toed nationals line and will again in a bad and worse scenario.

 

Silly Aviatrx, eaglefly is never wrong. And even when he is, its your misunderstanding, not his.

 

Sure I'm wrong at times just like you. But in this case she misread my post and my points were valid. Envoy is hiring less then are leaving and that is the crux of the problem. Your Union admits it.

Are we all wrong or do you believe Envoy will soon pull a rabbit out of a hat ? If so, could you explain to us all just how an airline that is losing more pilots then it hires will function as is, including the flow in perpetuity ?

I'm all ears.

 

Sorry, EF is right on this one. The 1113 was the stick they threatened is with, the bankruptcy contract with the "promise" of the 175's was the carrot. We signed, they gave the 175's to RAH.

 

Do you really think that they are just going to sit there and go, hmm, "I don't know what to do", while doing nothing? They have already instituted several incentives, although we all agree that they were/are inadequate. Common sense would suggest that they will be offering more incentives. Even Endeavor didn't end up with what they have all at once. They are on Rev 4, I believe.

I think that they are over a year behind the ball in what they finally offered during the first quarter of this year, and that the longer they wait, the less effective any incentives will be but they have the money, they will put it up, just not until it is almost too late. It's the AMR/AAG way.

 

"Almost too late" ? Just curious, but when is that ? It seems at this point that the only thing that draws in pilots is the E-175. With only 40, that simply cannot generate the attraction engine needed to run the upgrade/flow BOTH of which are hinged on not shrinking.

Look, I'd like to see them ante up and I agree it is they (Envoy management) that needs to do it, but it is AAG that must give them the right tools and so far, they haven't. In the interim an already parched pilot asset well only dries further. What happens when Envoy has 15% less pilots by the Holidays, but the same feed allocation ?

I shudder to think about it. If you ask me, they're already so far behind the power curve they're almost certain to plow into the approach lights. I hope your right, because I have strong doubts considering their performance so far.