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Old 06-25-2016, 10:16 AM
  #3451  
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I saw a quote on EL that I thought very apt. It said something to the effect of, "is the best recruitment tool for coming to work at Envoy advertising the potential to not work here soon" ?

What is wrong with this picture ?
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Old 06-25-2016, 10:18 AM
  #3452  
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Originally Posted by Mistek89 View Post
The 8 yr upgrade is going to drop I don't understand how some people don't believe that . 2 years ago people kept saying endeavor will go under and that their upgrades were 7 yrs . Now look what happend . All this negativity is so annoying , if it sucks so bad go work in a warehouse and then complain.
No doubt, the upgrade is going to drop. Not sure how quickly depending upon the amount of aircraft that have to be parked. I would say that a 5 year upgrade would be the number inside of a year, perhaps.

The flow on the other hand is a total house of cards. The 824 will complete at some point in the near future. This is an arbitrated decision so AAG is likely to honor it as the legal consequences could be somewhat severe.

After that, I have no faith that the Protected Pilot group will flow in the numbers listed in the agreement. There aren't enough new hires to cover the guys leaving off the top. AAG/Envoy will claim operational necessity and tell the union to grieve it. The union will likely cave and agree to a reduced number, say 8 per month. As with previous grievances (see LTFO) AAG has a history of dragging things out so it would likely take YEARS before any type of resolution would be forthcoming from a union filed grievance.

Envoy has good training and good crews. This is good for starting your career. Keep your eyes open and don't buy into the hype. Look for your exit and move onward and upward as Envoy is likely not the vehicle to get you to your final career destination.

As to the negativity, I spent some years at Envoy and lived through the treatment. I have since left for a better opportunity.
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Old 06-25-2016, 10:40 AM
  #3453  
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If Envoy was such a great place to go why do they have worst hiring numbers out of almost all regionals?

If Envoy was such a great place to go why can't they keep up with attrition?

If Envoy was such a great place to go why is there so much negativity about it on every BBS.

I can't say whether or not it would be a great home. I can say if I had all the tools a new hire has today I would use all those tools to see what I might be in for going to Envoy.

I know they had some type of flow agreement in the past. I know they violated it. I know they lost in court and were court ordered to flow 824 pilots they tried to screw over.

"Show me your past and I'll show you your future."
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Old 06-25-2016, 10:41 AM
  #3454  
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Originally Posted by ag386 View Post
I fail to see how someone hiring on at Envoy today has amazing timing. Unless you are still buying into that sub 6 year flow baloney.

Or, unless they enjoy being worked to the bone with minimal days off, early starts, late finishes, abhorrent treatment from top management all the way down, seriously sub par wages, depending on your aircraft...almost terminal reserve, minimal credit lines, 2 days off between sequences, pay comp screwing you out of dollars monthly with a fight on your hands just to get what's owed to you, 8 year upgrades and 15 year flows.
This is full of misinformation, and didn't you leave envoy?

I'm on erj ord, most Jr last holder is under 6 months. I'm in the top 1/3 but half the bid pack has been 14-16 days off. There's no mathematical way to have 2 days off all month with even 13 or 14 days off. I push trips into conflict and easily have 16 to 18 off. Ot is 200% for the forsee able future. It's so easy to clean house. Next vacancy will be 2010 captains, 6 year upgrades, it's going to come down. The flow is 16 years but they didn't hire much after 9/11 I'm a 2011 hire and about 1000 away, minus 350 who skipped flow. The union has a spread sheet for pay that's easy to use and I haven't been paid wrong in 9 months. The airplanes and training are quality. The other details are slowly being worked on but it's trending positive and as I said right now is good timing.
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Old 06-25-2016, 10:46 AM
  #3455  
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Originally Posted by ag386 View Post
No doubt, the upgrade is going to drop. Not sure how quickly depending upon the amount of aircraft that have to be parked. I would say that a 5 year upgrade would be the number inside of a year, perhaps.

The flow on the other hand is a total house of cards. The 824 will complete at some point in the near future. This is an arbitrated decision so AAG is likely to honor it as the legal consequences could be somewhat severe.

After that, I have no faith that the Protected Pilot group will flow in the numbers listed in the agreement. There aren't enough new hires to cover the guys leaving off the top. AAG/Envoy will claim operational necessity and tell the union to grieve it. The union will likely cave and agree to a reduced number, say 8 per month. As with previous grievances (see LTFO) AAG has a history of dragging things out so it would likely take YEARS before any type of resolution would be forthcoming from a union filed grievance.

Envoy has good training and good crews. This is good for starting your career. Keep your eyes open and don't buy into the hype. Look for your exit and move onward and upward as Envoy is likely not the vehicle to get you to your final career destination.

As to the negativity, I spent some years at Envoy and lived through the treatment. I have since left for a better opportunity.
With regards to the PP agreement and the 824 arbitration award... What are the differences between a grievance settlement and an arbitration award? How does the enforceability of each change?
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Old 06-25-2016, 10:53 AM
  #3456  
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Originally Posted by None View Post
If Envoy was such a great place to go why do they have worst hiring numbers out of almost all regionals?

If Envoy was such a great place to go why can't they keep up with attrition?

If Envoy was such a great place to go why is there so much negativity about it on every BBS.

I can't say whether or not it would be a great home. I can say if I had all the tools a new hire has today I would use all those tools to see what I might be in for going to Envoy.

I know they had some type of flow agreement in the past. I know they violated it. I know they lost in court and were court ordered to flow 824 pilots they tried to screw over.

"Show me your past and I'll show you your future."
Welcome back None. Nice of you to respond to yourself again.
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Old 06-25-2016, 10:55 AM
  #3457  
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Originally Posted by go skers View Post
With regards to the PP agreement and the 824 arbitration award... What are the differences between a grievance settlement and an arbitration award? How does the enforceability of each change?
The 824 agreement was the by-product of a direct award by an arbitrator. The PP agreement was a negotiated settlement and the company was astute enough to avoid an arbitrated award which carries different legal weight. The PP is simply a contractual provision and we all know or should know that circumstances frequently arise where contracts are altered either by agreement (bad) or threat of worse.

The $15,000 question is will Envoy be willing to flow itself into a weaker operational position or worse yet, essentially out of business ?

I don't believe AAG will allow the PP agreement at Envoy destroy the carrier, the only question is when and under what circumstances they pull that trigger. My bet says sometime shortly after the 824 have flowed, but that variable is dependent upon just how fast things are going south at Envoy pilot staffing wise.
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Old 06-25-2016, 12:07 PM
  #3458  
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Originally Posted by lakehouse View Post
This is full of misinformation, and didn't you leave envoy?

I'm on erj ord, most Jr last holder is under 6 months. I'm in the top 1/3 but half the bid pack has been 14-16 days off. There's no mathematical way to have 2 days off all month with even 13 or 14 days off. I push trips into conflict and easily have 16 to 18 off. Ot is 200% for the forsee able future. It's so easy to clean house. Next vacancy will be 2010 captains, 6 year upgrades, it's going to come down. The flow is 16 years but they didn't hire much after 9/11 I'm a 2011 hire and about 1000 away, minus 350 who skipped flow. The union has a spread sheet for pay that's easy to use and I haven't been paid wrong in 9 months. The airplanes and training are quality. The other details are slowly being worked on but it's trending positive and as I said right now is good timing.
There are trips built with 4-on-2-off and uncommutable at one end. This is what brings the days off WAY down due to having to travel to base on your day off
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Old 06-25-2016, 12:25 PM
  #3459  
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Originally Posted by Aviatrx View Post
There are trips built with 4-on-2-off and uncommutable at one end. This is what brings the days off WAY down due to having to travel to base on your day off
They are a small amount and with trip trade can be worked around. So other regionals what is a Jr line holders schedule like??
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Old 06-25-2016, 12:30 PM
  #3460  
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Originally Posted by eaglefly View Post
The 824 agreement was the by-product of a direct award by an arbitrator. The PP agreement was a negotiated settlement and the company was astute enough to avoid an arbitrated award which carries different legal weight. The PP is simply a contractual provision and we all know or should know that circumstances frequently arise where contracts are altered either by agreement (bad) or threat of worse.

The $15,000 question is will Envoy be willing to flow itself into a weaker operational position or worse yet, essentially out of business ?

I don't believe AAG will allow the PP agreement at Envoy destroy the carrier, the only question is when and under what circumstances they pull that trigger. My bet says sometime shortly after the 824 have flowed, but that variable is dependent upon just how fast things are going south at Envoy pilot staffing wise.
I'm not a lawyer but this runs deeper, it is my understanding the pp upto Oct 2011 are part of a settlement. That settlement got deeper during ch11 in which we settled open grievances. Pp are part of a settlement, not just contractual.

Also the comeplete loss of pilots retained by stopping the flow would far exceed the amount retained and recruited with it. I'm sure aag is aware of this, as it seems to be their main tool anyway. The wheels would literary fall off the bus.
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