What's the Latest at ASA/Expressjet?
07-21-2012 | 06:00 AM
#601
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From: e190
Excuse me, but doesn't XJET ERJ side already have an industry leading contract in terms of pay, benefits, retirement, scheduling, and QOL? If not, who has better - especially in the 50 seat RJ market? The old ASA side is pretty much next in line in most contract categories, especially after all the bankruptcys, etc? Why all the chest pounding to get an industry leading contract? Your already there. Now, that said, neither side is even remotely suggesting you go backwards in ANY contract category.. The gains you get will probably be smaller than you expect, despite the economy of scale, etc. the whole 20-30% pay increase with full retro isn't going to happen. Going from the best contract to even way higher the best + just probably won't fly.
The other side of that argument is diminishing marginal return...which unfortunately where the regional segment of the industry finds itself. There are too many widget makers (50 seaters and the pilots that go with them if you will) bumping into each other on the factory floor. It has tipped over the top of the curve and is no longer an efficient means of production from the perspective of those with the capital.
You could grow any subcontractor to infinity and they would only get less efficient and more expensive at this juncture. Behemoth size is not necessarily a strength, and in this particular instance it is not. An increase in cost only furthers to sharpen the curve in the wrong direction from the perspective of labor. It happens over and over yet labor still buys into notion of a very broken pattern bargaining model.
You could grow any subcontractor to infinity and they would only get less efficient and more expensive at this juncture. Behemoth size is not necessarily a strength, and in this particular instance it is not. An increase in cost only furthers to sharpen the curve in the wrong direction from the perspective of labor. It happens over and over yet labor still buys into notion of a very broken pattern bargaining model.
This is a little different then the overly simple widgets definition from microeconomics. The more jets you operate allows for cheaper pilot and FA training, bulk prices on spare parts, better financing terms, lower management overhead as a % of revenue, and simplified payroll/benefits/HR. Even at the text book point of diminishing returns the costs of entry for a regional to compete are too high. This market favors bigger companies and that has been echoed by numerous financial guys in the industry (boyd, Mann and company, and other analysts.) They predicted 4 massive regional airlines surviving in the next decade. Most agree on Skywest, Republic, and the remaining two are an unknown.
07-22-2012 | 06:02 AM
#602
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You have to wonder if the issues really have to do with the new TA's and the change in the industry or if the two sides are just irreparably too far apart in the compensation section. Who knows. I'll just keep dragging my butt up to EWR with no possible end to the commute in sight.
07-22-2012 | 12:50 PM
#603
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From: EMB 145 CPT
You could grow any subcontractor to infinity and they would only get less efficient and more expensive at this juncture. Behemoth size is not necessarily a strength, and in this particular instance it is not. An increase in cost only furthers to sharpen the curve in the wrong direction from the perspective of labor. It happens over and over yet labor still buys into notion of a very broken pattern bargaining model.
07-22-2012 | 01:04 PM
#604
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From: EMB 145 CPT
Economies of scale...did you not see that in my post. Thats the difference between XJT now and all of them then.
Or do you expect any of us to take ANY concession in this new contract?
1. Here is a list of my own. Mesa, Colgan, TSA, and I could co go but how has being lean on pilot compensation helped them in this marathon?
Economies of scale...
Read my post again and the one above. This is not about bragging. I'll ask again, why not industry leading when that is NOTHING to brag about? You are right, we are not mainline, which is why we are not trying to get mainline industry leading contract.
2. This is about trying to get compensated what we are worth. In the end we will get what we are willing to work for. But that is not to say that we shouldn't get industry leading.
3. Are YOU willing to take any concession on any part of your contract? Do you expect the LXJT pilots to take any concession on Amy part of their contract?
4. If not, then what would be wrong with taking the best of both contracts, adjust pay rates upward, and call it a day?
5. Because that would be a regional industry leading contract! Three questions there for you.
Or do you expect any of us to take ANY concession in this new contract?
1. Here is a list of my own. Mesa, Colgan, TSA, and I could co go but how has being lean on pilot compensation helped them in this marathon?
Economies of scale...
Read my post again and the one above. This is not about bragging. I'll ask again, why not industry leading when that is NOTHING to brag about? You are right, we are not mainline, which is why we are not trying to get mainline industry leading contract.
2. This is about trying to get compensated what we are worth. In the end we will get what we are willing to work for. But that is not to say that we shouldn't get industry leading.
3. Are YOU willing to take any concession on any part of your contract? Do you expect the LXJT pilots to take any concession on Amy part of their contract?
4. If not, then what would be wrong with taking the best of both contracts, adjust pay rates upward, and call it a day?
5. Because that would be a regional industry leading contract! Three questions there for you.
1. There is a great deal of difference between the ones I listed and the airlines you have listed. Look at the management of those airlines and the pilot groups and stack them up against ACA, Air Wis, Comair, ASA and XE.
2. XE has already proven that your former contract, prior to give backs, could not be supported in this market place when you went out on your own. Your former management team screwed you. They gave you everything you wanted because they would always show a profit when you were owned by CAL. That is one of the reason they put you out in the market on your own. That is when your management team actually had to work. Bid for flying like everyone else out there and when they saw their own product could not compete in the market place because cost were too high, well history speaks for itself.
3. I see your stuck on negotiating 101. I am willing to look at any proposal. I am willing to move things around, give in some areas as long as that value is returned in other areas with an increase.
4. Both agreements have good points and bad points. When you say move pay rate upward it depends on what your definition of upward is? How much. For a 50 seat aircraft in this market, a market that shows it's going away, we are close to the max. For ASA it's better to place money in the future where there is room to move upward. If you want more money per hour move towards the larger airframes.
5. Get over this "industry leading contract". Boasting is very over rated.
2. Of course the branded operation was not profitable at $130 per barrel of oil. We could have taken a 50% paycut and it still wouldn't have worked. But once they pulled the plug on that, if it wasn't for Skywest, XJT would have been profitable. If you don't know the history of that then you cannot intelligently have this conversation on point number 2.
Point number 3. The reality is that if you would be given the XJT contract as your "proposal", it would be a windfall only for the crj side. Vice versa, it would be a huge concession. The reality is that no ERJ pilot wants a concession. A none of us should be giving ANY concessions. If you agree with that last statement, then what is wrong with wanting a industry leading contract? Because that would be the result of none of giving concessions.
4. I purposely left that open ended. You decide for yourself how much you need before you vote for a TA. But he question still stands and you didn't answer it.
5. You just don't get it. A regional industry leading contract is less than what we deserve. It's nothing to brag about. So why are you so scared to negotiate for something that isn't that great to begin with?
Economies of scale
Synergy cost savings
07-23-2012 | 04:20 AM
#605
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1. The point is that you can be the absolute cheapest pilot group and that will not make you a successful company. As you alluded to, management makes a bigger difference. So why are you arguing agains getting a regional industry leading contract?
2. Of course the branded operation was not profitable at $130 per barrel of oil. We could have taken a 50% paycut and it still wouldn't have worked. But once they pulled the plug on that, if it wasn't for Skywest, XJT would have been profitable. If you don't know the history of that then you cannot intelligently have this conversation on point number 2.
Point number 3. The reality is that if you would be given the XJT contract as your "proposal", it would be a windfall only for the crj side. Vice versa, it would be a huge concession. The reality is that no ERJ pilot wants a concession. A none of us should be giving ANY concessions. If you agree with that last statement, then what is wrong with wanting a industry leading contract? Because that would be the result of none of giving concessions.
4. I purposely left that open ended. You decide for yourself how much you need before you vote for a TA. But he question still stands and you didn't answer it.
5. You just don't get it. A regional industry leading contract is less than what we deserve. It's nothing to brag about. So why are you so scared to negotiate for something that isn't that great to begin with?
Economies of scale
Synergy cost savings
2. Of course the branded operation was not profitable at $130 per barrel of oil. We could have taken a 50% paycut and it still wouldn't have worked. But once they pulled the plug on that, if it wasn't for Skywest, XJT would have been profitable. If you don't know the history of that then you cannot intelligently have this conversation on point number 2.
Point number 3. The reality is that if you would be given the XJT contract as your "proposal", it would be a windfall only for the crj side. Vice versa, it would be a huge concession. The reality is that no ERJ pilot wants a concession. A none of us should be giving ANY concessions. If you agree with that last statement, then what is wrong with wanting a industry leading contract? Because that would be the result of none of giving concessions.
4. I purposely left that open ended. You decide for yourself how much you need before you vote for a TA. But he question still stands and you didn't answer it.
5. You just don't get it. A regional industry leading contract is less than what we deserve. It's nothing to brag about. So why are you so scared to negotiate for something that isn't that great to begin with?
Economies of scale
Synergy cost savings
1. What is your background or involvement in contract negotiations?
2. Sir, do not under estimate my knowledge of airline history. You did take a pay cut and continued to bleed. As for SKYW, grow up, quit crying and be a man and move on.
3. Your contract just as ASA's contract has strengths and weakness. Windfall? Over rated.
4. I need something in front of me before I vote. I look at all the language not just one or two items.
5. Sir, you lack of knowledge in history, experience when it comes to contracts (how many have you been involved with), lack of negotiating experience and the fact that you are unable to look through the windshield and are focused on the rearview mirror when it comes to SKYW INC and XJT speaks volumes to your victim mentality.
Save your key strokes, I feel that we have hit that brick wall.
07-23-2012 | 09:28 AM
#606
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From: EMB 145 CPT
1. The point is that you can be the absolute cheapest pilot group and that will not make you a successful company. As you alluded to, management makes a bigger difference. So why are you arguing agains getting a regional industry leading contract?
2. Of course the branded operation was not profitable at $130 per barrel of oil. We could have taken a 50% paycut and it still wouldn't have worked. But once they pulled the plug on that, if it wasn't for Skywest, XJT would have been profitable. If you don't know the history of that then you cannot intelligently have this conversation on point number 2.
Point number 3. The reality is that if you would be given the XJT contract as your "proposal", it would be a windfall only for the crj side. Vice versa, it would be a huge concession. The reality is that no ERJ pilot wants a concession. A none of us should be giving ANY concessions. If you agree with that last statement, then what is wrong with wanting a industry leading contract? Because that would be the result of none of giving concessions.
4. I purposely left that open ended. You decide for yourself how much you need before you vote for a TA. But he question still stands and you didn't answer it.
5. You just don't get it. A regional industry leading contract is less than what we deserve. It's nothing to brag about. So why are you so scared to negotiate for something that isn't that great to begin with?
Economies of scale
Synergy cost savings
2. Of course the branded operation was not profitable at $130 per barrel of oil. We could have taken a 50% paycut and it still wouldn't have worked. But once they pulled the plug on that, if it wasn't for Skywest, XJT would have been profitable. If you don't know the history of that then you cannot intelligently have this conversation on point number 2.
Point number 3. The reality is that if you would be given the XJT contract as your "proposal", it would be a windfall only for the crj side. Vice versa, it would be a huge concession. The reality is that no ERJ pilot wants a concession. A none of us should be giving ANY concessions. If you agree with that last statement, then what is wrong with wanting a industry leading contract? Because that would be the result of none of giving concessions.
4. I purposely left that open ended. You decide for yourself how much you need before you vote for a TA. But he question still stands and you didn't answer it.
5. You just don't get it. A regional industry leading contract is less than what we deserve. It's nothing to brag about. So why are you so scared to negotiate for something that isn't that great to begin with?
Economies of scale
Synergy cost savings
1. What is your background or involvement in contract negotiations?
2. Sir, do not under estimate my knowledge of airline history. You did take a pay cut and continued to bleed. As for SKYW, grow up, quit crying and be a man and move on.
3. Your contract just as ASA's contract has strengths and weakness. Windfall? Over rated.
4. I need something in front of me before I vote. I look at all the language not just one or two items.
5. Sir, you lack of knowledge in history, experience when it comes to contracts (how many have you been involved with), lack of negotiating experience and the fact that you are unable to look through the windshield and are focused on the rearview mirror when it comes to SKYW INC and XJT speaks volumes to your victim mentality.
Save your key strokes, I feel that we have hit that brick wall.
Anyway, you are arguing against me on why we shouldn't get an regional industry leading contract. All I'm saying is that with economies of scale, synergy cost savings, we shouldn't be afraid to expect ANY concession from any pilot in any part of the new contract. The difference between the ERJ contract and a contract with the best of both, is not that much more anyway and would still create a regional industry leading contract. Nothing to brag about and nothing that cannot be afforded seeing as that we are in the black already without realizing all the cost savings of a truly merged company.
07-23-2012 | 01:02 PM
#607
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From: ERJ145 Captain
You are taking this WAY to personal. I'm not the one who brought up past failures of other companies whose pilots where supposedly paid well, or the past failure of XJT, so don't tell me I'm looking in the rear view mirror. I don't know enough about those other companies other than that there were other not so successful companies whose pilots have a crappy contract and have still flailed. But I do know what happened at XJT and you don't since you weren't there on the front lines and apparently have not heard what happened and XJT was losing money even after shutting down the branded operation. So if you don't want to look back, then don't bring it to to someone who knows exactly what happened. I say again, I didn't bring up ANY past events, YOU DID!
Anyway, you are arguing against me on why we shouldn't get an regional industry leading contract. All I'm saying is that with economies of scale, synergy cost savings, we shouldn't be afraid to expect ANY concession from any pilot in any part of the new contract. The difference between the ERJ contract and a contract with the best of both, is not that much more anyway and would still create a regional industry leading contract. Nothing to brag about and nothing that cannot be afforded seeing as that we are in the black already without realizing all the cost savings of a truly merged company.
Anyway, you are arguing against me on why we shouldn't get an regional industry leading contract. All I'm saying is that with economies of scale, synergy cost savings, we shouldn't be afraid to expect ANY concession from any pilot in any part of the new contract. The difference between the ERJ contract and a contract with the best of both, is not that much more anyway and would still create a regional industry leading contract. Nothing to brag about and nothing that cannot be afforded seeing as that we are in the black already without realizing all the cost savings of a truly merged company.
YouTube - Family Guy Peter Gets Raped - YouTube
07-23-2012 | 03:15 PM
#608
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Dude seriously, arguing with CRJ guys about the merits of an industry leading contract is pointless. Pretend Peter Griffin is the CRJ guys and the Bull is management, this is exactly their mentality, completely institutionalized:
YouTube - Family Guy Peter Gets Raped - YouTube
YouTube - Family Guy Peter Gets Raped - YouTube
07-23-2012 | 04:16 PM
#609
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From: ERJ145 Captain
07-23-2012 | 06:08 PM
#610
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Not the family guy reference. You, you're the joke.
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