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Old 12-27-2016, 06:23 AM
  #2251  
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Originally Posted by atrdriver
Many of our guys are focused on making excuses for management and trying to rationalize working for 30-40% less than their peers. Besides, negotiating a CBA takes a lot of time, so we should just be patient and accept our substandard working conditions. Because culture.
You often comment about our pilots rationalizing about working for 30 to 40 percent less than our peers. Who pays their Airbus Captains 311 to 363 $/hour? That's how the math works.

Not trying to poke you in the chest, but what numbers are you using? Unless you're speaking of other things, like 401k matching, where do you get such a disparity from?
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Old 12-27-2016, 07:17 AM
  #2252  
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Originally Posted by Pickleman
... where do you get such a disparity from?
All Sections.
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Old 12-27-2016, 09:09 AM
  #2253  
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Originally Posted by Pickleman
You often comment about our pilots rationalizing about working for 30 to 40 percent less than our peers. Who pays their Airbus Captains 311 to 363 $/hour? That's how the math works.

Not trying to poke you in the chest, but what numbers are you using? Unless you're speaking of other things, like 401k matching, where do you get such a disparity from?
All sections, but even just pay rate wise, I think your math is way off.
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Old 12-27-2016, 10:22 AM
  #2254  
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Originally Posted by Pickleman
You often comment about our pilots rationalizing about working for 30 to 40 percent less than our peers. Who pays their Airbus Captains 311 to 363 $/hour? That's how the math works.

Not trying to poke you in the chest, but what numbers are you using? Unless you're speaking of other things, like 401k matching, where do you get such a disparity from?
Pay
401k
B fund
Vacation
Sick
Rigs Daily and Duty
Profit sharing

Dollar value per hour is only one factor in a long line of what is total compensation.

For instance: jB a 12yr Ca earns 11.5 or 12 hrs of PTO every month. Annually that comes to less than 150hrs a year. That's to be used as sick and vacation or sold back at a premium.

A delta guy gets weeks of vacation and over 100 hrs just be be used as sick time.

Shooting from the hip here I don't have the comparison guide in front of me, but I assure you the deficit is real.

Last edited by CaptCoolHand; 12-27-2016 at 10:33 AM.
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Old 12-27-2016, 11:14 AM
  #2255  
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Originally Posted by CaptCoolHand
Pay
401k
B fund
Vacation
Sick
Rigs Daily and Duty
Profit sharing

Dollar value per hour is only one factor in a long line of what is total compensation.

For instance: jB a 12yr Ca earns 11.5 or 12 hrs of PTO every month. Annually that comes to less than 150hrs a year. That's to be used as sick and vacation or sold back at a premium.

A delta guy gets weeks of vacation and over 100 hrs just be be used as sick time.

Shooting from the hip here I don't have the comparison guide in front of me, but I assure you the deficit is real.
I get it. We are compensated less...not arguing that at all.

Since ALPA represents other airlines, like Delta, surely they should have the stats to give us a more accurate picture.

However, 30 to 40% is a swag, right? It seems to me that as we negotiate our CBA we should have an accurate picture of the playing field. I hope our negotiating committee does...lots of numbers get thrown around on this forum and most often without source.

Sure, you can't just look at hourly pay rates (work rules are probably equally as important, for example). However, looking at hourly rates, the difference is NO WHERE near 30 to 40%.
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Old 12-27-2016, 11:25 AM
  #2256  
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Your last paragraph is the point. It's not just rates. It's everything.

Big picture.

ALPA has the stats and has published them. Best thing you can do is get on the ALPA web site and learn for yourself. If you don't want to believe the comparison guide call your reps.

Last edited by CaptCoolHand; 12-27-2016 at 11:55 AM.
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Old 12-27-2016, 03:42 PM
  #2257  
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Originally Posted by CaptCoolHand
Pay
401k
B fund
Vacation
Sick
Rigs Daily and Duty
Profit sharing

Dollar value per hour is only one factor in a long line of what is total compensation.

For instance: jB a 12yr Ca earns 11.5 or 12 hrs of PTO every month. Annually that comes to less than 150hrs a year. That's to be used as sick and vacation or sold back at a premium.

A delta guy gets weeks of vacation and over 100 hrs just be be used as sick time.

Shooting from the hip here I don't have the comparison guide in front of me, but I assure you the deficit is real.
Actually the vacation might be a little better than the comparisons make it out to be. I don't want to sound like a juicer but let's look at the real math instead of a skewed chart. Yes their Vacation + sick time is more than our PTO. However our PTO is more than their vacation. So a year 4 guy here can take 4 vacations, can't do that at delta or United, But it doesn't leave much sick time. They get 3.5 per day for a vacation day, we get 5, the chart didn't factor that difference in. If you start doing the math on that its a way better deal for us, unless you get sick and have no PTO. Be careful what you wish for, our system is way better, we just need some more hours added to it. imagine a week vacation for 24.5 hours of pay, you would really have to work a lot that month to get a normal check, and a use or loose sick bank, and having to get a doctors note after 2 sick calls, no thanks.
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Old 12-27-2016, 03:50 PM
  #2258  
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Originally Posted by CaptCoolHand
Pay
401k
B fund
Vacation
Sick
Rigs Daily and Duty
Profit sharing

Dollar value per hour is only one factor in a long line of what is total compensation.

For instance: jB a 12yr Ca earns 11.5 or 12 hrs of PTO every month. Annually that comes to less than 150hrs a year. That's to be used as sick and vacation or sold back at a premium.

A delta guy gets weeks of vacation and over 100 hrs just be be used as sick time.

Shooting from the hip here I don't have the comparison guide in front of me, but I assure you the deficit is real.
So your example above.
Delta guy gets 4 vacations at 24.5 hours each and 100 hours sick time that's 198.

JB guy gets 144 PTO. Uses 4 vacations that pay a total of 140 credit, charged 98, so 46 left over for sick. 46+140 is 186. So about 12 hours behind for the year.

But those charts just show the difference in 198 and 144.
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Old 12-27-2016, 05:43 PM
  #2259  
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Originally Posted by WhiteHammer
Actually the vacation might be a little better than the comparisons make it out to be. I don't want to sound like a juicer but let's look at the real math instead of a skewed chart. Yes their Vacation + sick time is more than our PTO. However our PTO is more than their vacation. So a year 4 guy here can take 4 vacations, can't do that at delta or United, But it doesn't leave much sick time. They get 3.5 per day for a vacation day, we get 5, the chart didn't factor that difference in. If you start doing the math on that its a way better deal for us, unless you get sick and have no PTO. Be careful what you wish for, our system is way better, we just need some more hours added to it. imagine a week vacation for 24.5 hours of pay, you would really have to work a lot that month to get a normal check, and a use or loose sick bank, and having to get a doctors note after 2 sick calls, no thanks.
Of vacation system is only a better deal for management. Our system have given Jetblue a 500-600 pilot staffing advantage to our peers. First Jetblue only allocates 2 weeks per pilot. Your hypothetical group of 4 year pilots will not get 4 weeks each. Will not happen. Maybe a few but no where near 100% of all 4 year pilots will get 4 weeks.

We have 12 -14 year pilots who can not hold a single week off.

Our system needs to be completely rewritten and done away with.

Our system is a scam!

Your story about the 4 year pilots getting 4 weeks of vacation reminds me of the toolbag that pointed out our OJI system was the best. We used to only earn Worker Compensation when other were getting line guarantees. This tool bag said he got 90 hours and the JBPA supporters were lying.

Well this tool bag forgot to tell everyone that he took a job at OSC as an instructor and called that OJI - Worker Compensation.

The entire mindset of "Jetblue" needs to get flushed.
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Old 12-27-2016, 05:51 PM
  #2260  
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Getting paid 10 hours for a three day trip instead of 15 hours. There's 50% increase required right there.
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